First foray into HA

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  • biccies
    Automated Home Jr Member
    • Nov 2012
    • 39

    First foray into HA

    Hi all,
    I've been lurking around these parts for quite some time and felt it's time to sign up!
    I've been looking at home automation for quite some time, I've been living in rented accommodation since being at University so I have never been able to install any systems.
    I'm getting close to buying my first house, so I've been researching different approaches to HA a bit more intensely.

    The house we're hoping to buy does not currently have a burglar alarm, so this is where my search starts. Obviously, with us buying a house funds will be a bit tight, but a burglar alarm is fairly essential. If I can find a system that has a good security module, then it'd be a wiser spend of my money.

    This is where your knowledge and experience can aid me. What system would you recommend? If you could start over again, what would you do differently? What's worked really well?

    What I'm prepared to do:
    I would prefer to leave existing electrical cables where they are. I'd prefer to have the HA augment the current electrical system. i.e. current 'traditional' light switches will still turn lights on and off. (I don't mind replacing wall switches and sockets though). I basically don't want to be undertaking an awful lot of electrical work. I can run data cables, and minor electrical work, wherever and I don't mind getting dirty, and in fact would prefer a cabled alarm system (something which seems hard to find as everything is wireless!)
    I can setup a dedicated network for HA, and have spare PCs if there is a suitable software option. I also don't mind buying dedicated hardware.

    I intend to start off small using the system mostly as an intruder alarm and a small amount of lighting control. I would be looking to expand the system further in the future though.

    Wish list:
    - Intruder alarm with text/phone/email alerts preferably with cabled sensors (not wireless PIRs) [PIR sensors used for intruder alarm, could work with HA system to know if room is occupied, etc) - Bonus ability of working with CCTV -
    - Scheduled and 'Clever' programming. If it gets dark outside, slowly bring up lights inside if room is occupied.
    - API or some ability to receive commands over network from another application (For example my XBMC setup could issue a command when a film starts, and HA could dim lights)

    My current thoughts:
    I quite like the look of Z-Wave. There's a fair few UK appliances available, and the z wave fibaro modules look ideal! I haven't seen much evidence of people using burglar alarms with zwave though.

    It would appear I should avoid X10 at all costs.

    I was unaware of IDRATEK before reading these forums, and it looks quite promising. But I would rather not lock my self in to one manufacturer, as I'd quite like to use this system for many years. Basically, don't want to keep all my eggs in one basket- unless it's a particularly strong basket!


    Many thanks for your help!
  • Vangelis
    Automated Home Guru
    • Sep 2009
    • 131

    #2
    Comfort as main alarm and HA system (www.comfort.org.uk)
    LightwaveRF for light controls (www.diy.com) B&Q sell them under the Seimens brand

    LightwaveRF replace your light switches and can on/off/dim also by iPhone app
    Comfort has a LightwaveRF interface (via Eth2 Module and Lightwave WiFi Hub) also has Smartphone interface

    Comment

    • biccies
      Automated Home Jr Member
      • Nov 2012
      • 39

      #3
      Thank you for your reply Vangelis. The comfort system does indeed look to be very good. It's a shame their website is utter pants!
      I'll have a hunt around for a bit more information on the system. Anyone in this forum using Comfort and can recommend it?

      Comment

      • Vangelis
        Automated Home Guru
        • Sep 2009
        • 131

        #4
        I agree, it is a bit clunky. Have a looksee at www.comfortforums.com which is alot better and gives a wealth of information and documentation.
        I ran a Comfort system 1 for a few years - as an alarm. I am now installing a Comfort system 2 with Z-Wave and Ethernet integration.

        The Z-Wave 3 module is now 2-way comms, so you can get status of Z-wave devices (ala Fibaro). It also supports Lightwave which I already mentioned.

        The basis of the HA function is an If->Then->Else response (with timers). So for instance a PIR could trigger the landing light on detection and turn off after a period of time (nothing new there), however with Lightwave, at night time, it could do the same but only put on the light at 20% (so as not to wake the household).

        It can also do neat things such as, when alarmed, it will not trigger the alarm, if it detects a certain sequence of PIR activation, as in the path to the bathroom.

        The limits are down to your imagination really - the support is excellent and timely which is a real bonus if your having difficulties.

        Comment

        • biccies
          Automated Home Jr Member
          • Nov 2012
          • 39

          #5
          Thanks again Vangelis.
          I discovered comfort forums yesterday in my hunt for more information. The comfort system does look very powerful, though doesn't appear to be very DIY friendly.
          I need to read a bit more before parting with that much money!

          A comfort system with z-wave and Ethernet modules may be the way I go, although quite pricey.

          Comment

          • Vangelis
            Automated Home Guru
            • Sep 2009
            • 131

            #6
            I guess that depends on your experience with wiring - hardest part I have found is running the cables over the house. As for mounting the modules and wiring them, there is plenty of documentation regarding that on the forums.

            The system can get expensive, but I have not seen a system that can integrate with so much and not require a stand alone PC to be on all the time. Once you get your head around the Response programming, then it can be quite powerful - but again it depends on your experience.

            With the Eth module you can program it with your PC which is alot better than the keypad. The iPhone / Android app allows for real time sensor status which is good for setting up also.

            I, like you, had a good look around before settling on Comfort, but it met all my needs and was expandable and had regular OS upgrades to cater for more functionality and bug fixes.

            Other on here will have had good experience with other products but I have yet to find a system that integrates Alarm function and HA as well as Comfort.

            Comment

            • biccies
              Automated Home Jr Member
              • Nov 2012
              • 39

              #7
              It does indeed look powerful! Running cables for sensors is no problem, and would give me something to do on my weekends :-P
              It's a shame that systems like LightwaveRF don't appear to have a sensible system to have a "Server" or central brain. The LightwaveRF look really quite nice, but seems to only want to be paired with remote controls whereas I'd prefer automation.
              Thanks for your suggestions Vagelis. I've got plenty of reading to do on the Comfort system! I'm just trying to compare that to having a standard alarm system and then looking at the Home Automation separately.

              Comment

              • Vangelis
                Automated Home Guru
                • Sep 2009
                • 131

                #8
                LightwaveRF does via it's WiFi hub - you can set schedules etc. This can be done on the iPhone App yet its stored on the hub. You can even control power sockets and Thermostatic valves on rads - there is more in the pipeline as well.

                Comment

                • Wexfordman
                  Automated Home Guru
                  • Nov 2005
                  • 118

                  #9
                  Originally posted by biccies View Post
                  It does indeed look powerful! Running cables for sensors is no problem, and would give me something to do on my weekends :-P
                  It's a shame that systems like LightwaveRF don't appear to have a sensible system to have a "Server" or central brain. The LightwaveRF look really quite nice, but seems to only want to be paired with remote controls whereas I'd prefer automation.
                  Thanks for your suggestions Vagelis. I've got plenty of reading to do on the Comfort system! I'm just trying to compare that to having a standard alarm system and then looking at the Home Automation separately.
                  I have comfort for nearly 12 years, and simply cant fault it. As an alarm system, it is pricey, but it is not just an alarm system, and this is what you ahve to bear in mind. Another thing worht noting with comfort, which I think fits your bill, is its interoperabilitywith so many different systems, which would allow you to be a bit more flexible with what HA system you put in, including zwave,lightwave, x10 (yeah, sometimes x10 does still have a few uses, but not as your core HA system) etc.

                  I have had comfort 1, and comfort 2, homevision, x10, multiroom audio etc, and after 12 years, the only system still remaining (although upgraded) is comfort. I gotrid of homevision, x10 (most of it anyway), and comfort has outlived myhome audio system too.

                  Comment

                  • biccies
                    Automated Home Jr Member
                    • Nov 2012
                    • 39

                    #10
                    Thank you both for the feedback. It seems that Comfort is the "grown up" and well rounded solution. I'm still exploring my options, and considering having a separate alarm and HA system. The comfort may be too much like running before walking. Me and the other half may end up hating automation!
                    I'm currently looking at other z-wave options such as micasaverde, or getting USB Z-Wave controller and playing with a few software solutions such as HomeSeer and some open source.
                    I'm not overly interested in controlling the house from my smartphone, which is what everyone seems to be marketing. I think if Home Automation is done correctly it should be automated (as it is named!).
                    -Lights should come on when it's dark and someone is in the room. Lights should switch on in a dimmed state during the evening to illuminate the path to the bathroom.

                    -Heating should come on if it's cold and there is someone in the house, or if I'm on my way home from work. If I'm away on holiday the heating should just ensure nothing gets too cold it'd break- but then have the house warm for when we return.


                    It just seems odd to me that everyone markets these products based on basically just moving the switch- I want rid of the switch! (Obviously the switch would never go, as the system wont be able to account for everything, but using the switch should be the exception, not the rule)

                    Comment

                    • Wexfordman
                      Automated Home Guru
                      • Nov 2005
                      • 118

                      #11
                      Originally posted by biccies View Post
                      Thank you both for the feedback. It seems that Comfort is the "grown up" and well rounded solution. I'm still exploring my options, and considering having a separate alarm and HA system. The comfort may be too much like running before walking. Me and the other half may end up hating automation!
                      But leaving you with an excellent alarm system in its own rights


                      Originally posted by biccies View Post
                      I'm currently looking at other z-wave options such as micasaverde, or getting USB Z-Wave controller and playing with a few software solutions such as HomeSeer and some open source.
                      Yeah, lot of options about, but i think its important to consider the benefit of a tightly integrated alarm and HA system. For example, you want your house to behave differently when its occupied, when no one is home and the security is off, when the sevurity is in night mode etc. This can only really be done if your HA system knows what your security system is doing, or if they are one and the same!

                      Originally posted by biccies View Post
                      I'm not overly interested in controlling the house from my smartphone, which is what everyone seems to be marketing. I think if Home Automation is done correctly it should be automated (as it is named!).
                      Absolutely, but automation does not make your home able to read your mind,predict the future, or compensate for unplanned events. It will always require some form of manual input or intervention. What about the late arrival home, or even the early arrival home, and you want to turn on the heating early, or late! What about if someone rings you and needs to get into the house, but the system is armed and you need to disarm it. You need remote access, and smartphone access is an essential part of any system.

                      I am sure smartphone access can be delviered via other ways besides comfort, but I think it would be a mistake to discount remote access via smartphone!

                      Originally posted by biccies View Post
                      -Lights should come on when it's dark and someone is in the room. Lights should switch on in a dimmed state during the evening to illuminate the path to the bathroom.
                      Yep, and should behave differently depending on the house status... night mode, day mode,away mode etc.

                      Originally posted by biccies View Post
                      -Heating should come on if it's cold and there is someone in the house, or if I'm on my way home from work. If I'm away on holiday the heating should just ensure nothing gets too cold it'd break- but then have the house warm for when we return.
                      Unless you live an entirely predictable life with a rigid schedule, you have to plan for an allow for erratic behavour, such as arriving home late. How does the system know you are on the way home to warm up the house, or heat the hot water for your bath. How does it know if your running early or late or off schedule unless you tell it ?

                      Schedules can be done with manual rotary timers and you dont need HA, but if you want to be able to do what your asking above, then you have to have some form of remote access to tell your system what to do.


                      Originally posted by biccies View Post
                      It just seems odd to me that everyone markets these products based on basically just moving the switch- I want rid of the switch! (Obviously the switch would never go, as the system wont be able to account for everything, but using the switch should be the exception, not the rule)
                      I think most HA systems, that are well integrated do what you are looking for. In my own setup, light switches are used, but in exceptions. Most of my lights are automated depending on events, such as internal door opening, pir sensors etc (again, reacting differently if its day or night, or if the system is armed, disarmed, night mode etc).

                      Comment

                      • biccies
                        Automated Home Jr Member
                        • Nov 2012
                        • 39

                        #12
                        I believe that Comfort is probably one of the better systems out there, and in all likelihood the system I'll buy. The only concern I have is how DIY friendly the system will be, or not. Obviously to do this properly you'd have someone come and install the system- but that seems like taking the fun out of things! I also need to spend a bit more time understanding the capabilities of the software. Solutions like HomeSeer have user developed plugins.

                        Originally posted by Wexfordman View Post
                        I am sure smartphone access can be delviered via other ways besides comfort, but I think it would be a mistake to discount remote access via smartphone!
                        I did not intend for it to appear I do not want to control systems via my phone at all, it'd be great to be able to control things remotely. I believe that the selling point, though, should be the automation.

                        Originally posted by Wexfordman View Post
                        Unless you live an entirely predictable life with a rigid schedule, you have to plan for an allow for erratic behavour, such as arriving home late. How does the system know you are on the way home to warm up the house, or heat the hot water for your bath. How does it know if your running early or late or off schedule unless you tell it ?
                        Unfortunately my life isn't predictable, but it needn't be. Why should this action be scheduled? My phone already reports my location to Google Latitude (required for 'Google Now' to provide me up-to-date information) why can my system not poll latitude for my position? If I'm within a certain proximity to my house, the system can assume I'm on my way home.


                        Thanks again for your reply, I think it's great to hear from like minded people. It's also nice to see if I'm disillusioned with my thoughts of how a HA system could work.

                        Comment

                        • Karam
                          Automated Home Legend
                          • Mar 2005
                          • 863

                          #13
                          I'm from IDRATEK so this is music to my ears, since you have basically spelled out what we are always ranting about - namely the difference between intelligent automation (with emphasis on less user interaction) rather than more elaborate remote control / rudimentary automation. But what do you think is easier to sell? Something which tries to make itself less visible or something shiny and bright? Don't get me wrong, the latter is nice to have as well and I have to admit to fiddling with the smart phone interface far more than I need to ...

                          I sympathise with your view about being able to interconnect with various source devices but the problem is that this can lead to the path of rudimentary automation. The IDRATEK system is infact able to connect to some non IDRATEK devices by various means but if this is used for more than the odd device here and there you risk ending up with integration only in the sense that the devices are connected to the same system - sure you can send a 3rd party device commands and maybe even read some data and act upon this in some fashion but often it will be in the realms of writing bespoke If-then-else type logic and increasing effort to untangle the mess of interactions as the system scales up, which is what we have spent years trying to help people avoid...
                          Last edited by Karam; 29 November 2012, 02:33 AM.

                          Comment

                          • Vangelis
                            Automated Home Guru
                            • Sep 2009
                            • 131

                            #14
                            If your not afraid of wiring a plug, then wiring Comfort is straight forward and should not need any specific expertise. The only thing to note is make sure you use the correct cable type (especially for the keypads), and keep the wiring tidy in the control panel (this allows for troubleshooting if necessary). Even the connector blocks for the sensor connections are designed with DIY in mind as they have inbuilt spade contacts and can be removed from the board...

                            I am wiring up my system myself, and would not do it any other way as I will know it inside and out..

                            Comment

                            • biccies
                              Automated Home Jr Member
                              • Nov 2012
                              • 39

                              #15
                              Vangelis, thank you! That puts my mind at rest. I have enough electrical knowledge to know that I don't know everything, wiring a plug or changing a light switch or socket would be fine. What I don't want to do is mess around with anything more than that.
                              I think you ought to get some commission on the Comfort system!

                              Karam, thanks for your reply- the solutions provided by IDRATEK do appear to be strong and have a good following. I don't think it's the system for me though, the pattress modules may have an acquired taste- but to me seem rather ugly. It also looks to require a bit more messing with electrics than I'd like.

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