Heat Genius

[Hot]

Manual Adjusting Z-Wave Thermostatic Radiator Valves

OK - it is only that I'm sure HG claim somewhere you can manually adjust the Danfoss rad valves.

Well, yes you can, but it's only meaningful if that gets flagged up to the controller.

Tim

I had a look at what happens if I manually raise or lower the temperature on my Heat Genius Smart TRV Controller head.

This is what happens: The thermostat sends a message to the Heat Genius controller, informing it about the changes and as far as I can see the Heat Genius Algorithm configuration that resides on the Heat Genius Hub is automatically updated.

I then looked this up in the documentation that came with my Danfoss Z Wave Living Connect LC13

"Danfoss LC13 Z-Wave Documentation
Temperature control and adjustment

The temperature is controlled by the Z-Wave controller, but may be changed at any time using the thermostat’s buttons.

If this is done, the thermostat sends a message to the controller, informing about the changes."

In addition Heat Genius Hub does receive other data directly from their their Smart TRV controller or LC13, the Hub receives information about the Battery Level or how much energy there is left in the batteries within the Smart TRV controller and the current Living Connect clock. As you can see there are informations flowing in both direction.

[TimJWatts]

Thanks for going to the trouble to test that - pretty awesome.

I've ordered a starter system - 2 TRVs for the 2 bedrooms that will be zoned, the rest of the place will run with the current mechanical TRVs for now on a timed basis (with an occupancy PIR sensor, ordered 2 of those 2, one for a bedroom and one for the living room).

Can't wait to get it wired in. Fortunately I have a room stat with the necessary connections, L,N, Ldemand - even has the semi standard backplate, all I have to do is switch the demand wire to terminal 4 from 3 and clip it on

Cheers

Tim

[Hot]

Congratulation

Thanks for going to the trouble to test that - pretty awesome.

I've ordered a starter system - 2 TRVs for the 2 bedrooms that will be zoned, the rest of the place will run with the current mechanical TRVs for now on a timed basis (with an occupancy PIR sensor, ordered 2 of those 2, one for a bedroom and one for the living room).

Can't wait to get it wired in. Fortunately I have a room stat with the necessary connections, L,N, Ldemand - even has the semi standard backplate, all I have to do is switch the demand wire to terminal 4 from 3 and clip it on

Cheers

Tim

Tim

Congratulation - I am sure you will not be disappointed with your new system. Please keep me updated how you get on and if there is anything that I can do to help you then let me know. It is through people like you that even advanced users like me take a closer look at our system to learn even more.

[Kevin]

Can I just clarify... Do the setpoint schedules for each room get downloaded just once to the respective Danfoss LC13 TRV using the COMMAND_CLASS_CLIMATE_CONTROL_SCHEDULE Z-Wave class ? I.E they effectively run autonomously and don't require the Z-Wave network to update the setpoints on every timed change on each TRV ?

[Hot]

Setpoint Schedules Downloads

Can I just clarify... Do the setpoint schedules for each room get downloaded just once to the respective Danfoss LC13 TRV using the COMMAND_CLASS_CLIMATE_CONTROL_SCHEDULE Z-Wave class ? I.E they effectively run autonomously and don't require the Z-Wave network to update the setpoints on every timed change on each TRV ?

Kevin

Whilst the Heat Genius Hub is capable of running anonymously and without any link to the outside world. i.e. without having access to the Internet when for example the Internet is down the Heat Genius TRV (LC13) still requires the Z-Wave network to update the setpoints on every timed change on each TRV.

However, if the link to the Heat Genius Hub is broken i.e. if the Heat Genius Hub breaks down, each LC13 TRV will become autonomous and although they will still be reasonably intelligent they are only capable of operating within their built in parameters. In other words the LC13 TRV will continue to operate in a very limited survival mode (factory default) like for example the Open window function will continue and it will still be able to measure its surrounding temperature once a minute and you are still able to manually change the Temperature setting in the range between: 4 - 28°C and as far as I can understand the Frost Control is part of LC13 built in survival mode and if the battery goes flat the TRV is left open so water can still flow through it.

[Kevin]

The setup I was referring to wasn't so much when anything failed (e.g. Internet access or the hub) but how it handled the timed setpoint changes for each room. The LC13 has an internal clock and is capable of holding a schedule of IIRC 9 temp changes per day internally and hence operate autonomously still with timed setpoint changes. I wondered if HG used this facility or if during it's normal running the hub had to action each setpoint change on each TRV over the network directly. My existing Vera Z-Wave controller can not use this feature but I think it would be very beneficial in my situation and a reason to invest in HG although I have hear the TRV scheduling is not without issues.

I also had one other question relating to whether HG could be setup as the secondary Z-Wave controller, allowing me to retain and leverage my existing Z-Wave network / repeaters / controller.

[update] Spoke to HG today - very helpful... The answer to the two above questions:

No the schedules aren't loaded to the TRV's - they haven't seen a need because their experience is that a well setup Z-Wave network using LC13's is very reliable and of course if the hub wasn't working then you can't generate the boiler heat call anyway.

HG requires its own exclusive Z-Wave network - it can't operate with any other controller on the same network (Home ID). So new repeaters needed.

All looking good at the moment... only slight compromise I have is that there is no hot water temperature sensor/support in HG and so with a hot water priority system such as mine the HG system doesn't know how long will elapse between a 'call for heat' by the heating system and actual heat delivery which might confuse pre-heat. In a hot water priority system this is the time taken to heat the hot water to full temperature, before the boiler will turn it's attention to satisfying heating demand.

K

[Hot]

Some answers

The setup I was referring to wasn't so much when anything failed (e.g. Internet access or the hub) but how it handled the timed setpoint changes for each room. The LC13 has an internal clock and is capable of holding a schedule of IIRC 9 temp changes per day internally and hence operate autonomously still with timed setpoint changes. I wondered if HG used this facility or if during it's normal running the hub had to action each setpoint change on each TRV over the network directly. My existing Vera Z-Wave controller can not use this feature but I think it would be very beneficial in my situation and a reason to invest in HG although I have hear the TRV scheduling is not without issues.

I also had one other question relating to whether HG could be setup as the secondary Z-Wave controller, allowing me to retain and leverage my existing Z-Wave network / repeaters / controller.

[update] Spoke to HG today - very helpful... The answer to the two above questions:

No the schedules aren't loaded to the TRV's - they haven't seen a need because their experience is that a well setup Z-Wave network using LC13's is very reliable and of course if the hub wasn't working then you can't generate the boiler heat call anyway.

HG requires its own exclusive Z-Wave network - it can't operate with any other controller on the same network (Home ID). So new repeaters needed.

All looking good at the moment... only slight compromise I have is that there is no hot water temperature sensor/support in HG and so with a hot water priority system such as mine the HG system doesn't know how long will elapse between a 'call for heat' by the heating system and actual heat delivery which might confuse pre-heat. In a hot water priority system this is the time taken to heat the hot water to full temperature, before the boiler will turn it's attention to satisfying heating demand.

K

Kevin

Sorry for my confusion with your question - as I was not 100 percent sure what the answer is to your question about whether the Heat Genius used the built-in internal scheduler on their Smart TRV that allows up to 9 setpoints for up to 7 week day schedule so I raised your question with Heat Genius Team but I am waiting for an answer but once I receive an answer to my question I will let you know.

With regards to your second question - I am aware that development work has been under-way for a while at Heat Genius to create a API that allows Heat Genius to be setup as a secondary Z-Wave controller and therefore to used in conjunction with other Z-Wave network controllers.

As for official answer from Heat Genius, which can be found on their website: "We will be releasing our API early next year (2015) which will allow the Heat Genius system to be able to link with other home automation systems."

[DavidH]

Johannes,
I have been looking at this thread today, and it's very informative.
I like Tado's general control of CH and DHW with the geofencing and climate adaptation, and feel that is the best there is (and inexpenisve).
But I agree with you individual rad valve control is vital, so how to add it? Heat Genius and Honeywell seem somewhat expensive, and I am contemplating LightwaveRF for the local heating controls (I REALLY like their double 13A wall sockets which just replace the standard ones instead of an adaptor sticking out in front!), probably with something like Indigo to control them. I know Z Wave is a better technology than RF, but it is also more expensive, and I have 24 radiators!
From what I have read it would seem to offer most of Heat Genius' facilities except motion detection (the latter puzzles me as we are often sitting still for hours - presumably we would be considered "out"?). Would you say I would be missing anything else?

[Hot]

Best system for your budget

Johannes,
I have been looking at this thread today, and it's very informative.
I like Tado's general control of CH and DHW with the geofencing and climate adaptation, and feel that is the best there is (and inexpenisve).
But I agree with you individual rad valve control is vital, so how to add it? Heat Genius and Honeywell seem somewhat expensive, and I am contemplating LightwaveRF for the local heating controls (I REALLY like their double 13A wall sockets which just replace the standard ones instead of an adaptor sticking out in front!), probably with something like Indigo to control them. I know Z Wave is a better technology than RF, but it is also more expensive, and I have 24 radiators!
From what I have read it would seem to offer most of Heat Genius' facilities except motion detection (the latter puzzles me as we are often sitting still for hours - presumably we would be considered "out"?). Would you say I would be missing anything else?

David H

There is a lot of great kit out there and yes tado° has great Geofencing and I am looking forward to the day I see this clever feature incorporated into my Heat Genius system - and yes even if I have to buy a new Hub as it will require additional hardware.

Both Heat Genius and Honeywell Evohome are considered the leaders of the pack when it comes to Smart heating control. I am not going to try to say which one is better as it is always a preference of the user who decides which system they want to go for but their decision is often based on their building structure and budget.

However, I have often looked at LightwaveRF and wished Z-Wave had something similar beautiful to what RF have come up with and as you said it is clever how you can just replace a standard 13A wall socket with another one - and yes without any ugly adapter sticking out in front!

I am aware that nothing stays the same for long and on the CES 2015 at least one miniature Z-Wave controller was launched so I will be keeping a close eye for any manufacturers to see if any new Z-Wave wall socket will be launched - it is about time.

Heat Genius has motion detection and this feature has three sensitivity levels: The first is Super-Eco and the heating will only come on in a room if it is currently being used. This saves the most energy, but rooms will feel cold when you first walk into them. The Genius Hub will be reactive and will not bring the heating on before you get home. The second is Eco which is the standard Footprint setting, which learns when you use the the rooms and heat these up at expected times so the room is warm for when you use it. The third setting is Comfort and this is where Heat Genius will learn when you use rooms and if there are short periods of time when you are not in the room, the heating will stay on until it is sure that the room is no longer in use. This saves the least amount of energy but will be the most comfortable.

I have tried to fool the sensors but you would have to be in totally comatose state to fool the system sensor. You can monitor any movements on your App - when someone moves in the sensor range a icon of a person is displayed and this movement is integrated into Heat Genius "Fuzzy Logic"

What puts Heat Genius ahead of many other Smart Heating Systems is its highly tuned Fuzzy Logic: Fuzzy logic is a form of many-valued logic which deals with reasoning that is approximate rather than fixed and exact. Compared to traditional binary sets (where variables may take on true or false values), fuzzy logic variables may have a truth value that ranges in degree between 0 and 1.

By using Fuzzy Logic you can take into account all the small things (Internet of Things) and many small things make one big thing. You could say that the Fuzzy Logic is what saves your energy, without it you would have to work full time just to try to keep up with all the required changes that are needed in order to save energy.

I agree with you that Z-Wave is a better technology than LightwaveRF, but yes it is also more expensive, especially if you have 24 radiators.

LightwaveRF might be right for your specific situation but do your cost calculations carefully before you take to big step and order your goods as there is no return. Do your cost calculation of any additional hardware needed to do your Zoning.

LightwaveRF uses 868 MHz frequency which is the same frequency as Heat Genius and Evohome use, which allows the signal to penetrate better through the walls in your building.

I wish you all the best and whatever system you decide to go for, please let us know.

Johannes

[DavidH]

Many thanks.

I think LightwaveRF actually uses 433MHz ("LightwaveRF is wireless but uses a totally different frequency (433MHz) and has better range than higher frequency technologies." according to Vesternet support). Having been happy with X10 light/power for many years - even if a technologically and theoretical poor solution - I suspect Lightwave is good enough with RF repeaters, and can handle the other automation I wish to add (usual stuff, alarm, camera etc).
Thinking hard about it, I think what I would need would be eTRV's in each room, set to a basic pattern for the week, then some way in each room to say easily "Hotter now". I find if I am moving around a lowish temp may be fine, but if I am still (reading etc) I start to feel cold. Either a room stat or remote in each room controlling the eTRV's seems what is needed, with either a "BOOST" button or an easy way to up the temp.
eq-3 MAX! is about half the price of ZWave (or Lightwave) TRV/room stats, and I think can be run without needing their CUBE, though that's only £50 (very irritating that it's control is proprietary - unless you can delve into PERL etc). I can't quite see that I need the controllers of the rooms interacting with each other, or the overall controller. I am a little suprised that HG suggest that when the weather is hotter they can turn down the temp inside. The rooms will doubtless require less heat (if there's sun etc) but I would still want the same temp!

So I was planning to have Tado for general control and eq-3 for room control. For the HA I like the idea of Indigo rather than Lightwave's controller, and if not needing the Z wave heating controls can get away with Indigo light.

How does all that sound?

PS
Interesting that HG's fuzzy logic handles the "sitting watching tv" problem. I would probably try HG but it is prohibitively expensive for me.

[Hot]

Interesting Heating Ideas

Many thanks.

I think LightwaveRF actually uses 433MHz ("LightwaveRF is wireless but uses a totally different frequency (433MHz) and has better range than higher frequency technologies." according to Vesternet support). Having been happy with X10 light/power for many years - even if a technologically and theoretical poor solution - I suspect Lightwave is good enough with RF repeaters, and can handle the other automation I wish to add (usual stuff, alarm, camera etc).
Thinking hard about it, I think what I would need would be eTRV's in each room, set to a basic pattern for the week, then some way in each room to say easily "Hotter now". I find if I am moving around a lowish temp may be fine, but if I am still (reading etc) I start to feel cold. Either a room stat or remote in each room controlling the eTRV's seems what is needed, with either a "BOOST" button or an easy way to up the temp.
eq-3 MAX! is about half the price of ZWave (or Lightwave) TRV/room stats, and I think can be run without needing their CUBE, though that's only £50 (very irritating that it's control is proprietary - unless you can delve into PERL etc). I can't quite see that I need the controllers of the rooms interacting with each other, or the overall controller. I am a little suprised that HG suggest that when the weather is hotter they can turn down the temp inside. The rooms will doubtless require less heat (if there's sun etc) but I would still want the same temp!

So I was planning to have Tado for general control and eq-3 for room control. For the HA I like the idea of Indigo rather than Lightwave's controller, and if not needing the Z wave heating controls can get away with Indigo light.

How does all that sound?

PS
Interesting that HG's fuzzy logic handles the "sitting watching tv" problem. I would probably try HG but it is prohibitively expensive for me.

David H

I stand corrected - LightwaveRF do use 433MHz frequency for its communication and has indeed as a consequence better penetrating capabilities than for example Z-Wave and the two WiFi frequencies 2.4GHz and 5GHz that are in the upper end of frequencies that are used for home automations.

I noted that there are some RF Boosters out there that have Radio Frequency 433/868 MHz boosting cababilites. These are battery operated boosters. I have nothing against batteries - how can i when use them with my Z-Wave devices?

RF Signal Boosters are primarily used to solve coverage problems. Typically impenetrable areas such as buildings, tunnels, parking garages, underground areas are some of the locations where you might need a RF signal booster.

There is significant scope for interference however, on the 433 MHz frequency as the band is far from free. The frequencies from 430 to 440 MHz are allocated on a secondary basis to licensed radio amateurs who are allowed to use up to 40W (16dBW) between 430 and 432MHz and 400W (26dBW) between 432 and 440MHz.

Don't get me wrong - I am not trying to talk LightwaveRF down in any way but this is something you need to be aware of - LightwaveRF will work as specified in majority or nearly all cases but there might be instances interference where this might happen.

I am worried that in few places where you are sharing the same frequencies with other licensed users that you might experience interferences like 2.4GHz WiFi users have been experiencing in very dense population areas.

With regards to using eTRV - there will be a slight inconvenience because they are not operable by using an App on your mobile phone, or your PC. You need to use a remote control to operate them. Another but perhaps less inconvenience is that they don't work with Danfoss TRV body as they come out of the box so you need to take that into consideration if you already use Danfoss TRV body on your radiators and their lack a LCD screen to program make them incredibly frustrating to program - they do however work with most other makes of TRV body's. I just threw this in in case you had overlooked this. Another inconvenience is that as you have 24 radiators, you are going to end up with more than one remote control as you don't want to run upstairs or downstairs to collect your remote control just to operate your eTRV.

eTRV can however, be used without a remote control but only if you have an i-link or red rat. i-link can work from being attached to an Iphone or Ipad, and Red Rat loaded up with macros can programme an eTRV. Without the above or remote control no changes can be made to an eTRV.
i-link is currently not compatible with iPhone 5, iPhone 5s, iPhone 5C, iPad 4, iPad Mini, or iPod Touch Gen 5. If you want to use i-link with any of these models, you will have to purchase a ‘Lightning to 30-pin Adaptor,’ which can be found online.

LightwaveRF has compatible IP security camera, wall mounted motion sensor and doors and window sensor so you are well covered in that department.

I think you would be better to look at eq-3 MAX rather than the eTRV as it is more modern technology and easier to operate using your mobile, tablet both on-site and off-site.

The rooms do indeed require less heat when it is warm outside - I think what Heat Genius are meaning when they say they can turn down the temperature inside when the weather is hotter outside is that they can delay the heating coming on in the house because of their outside weather sensor - their weather Fuzzy Logic/ algorithm takes into account wind-chill and humidity when it working out the best way to heat your home. In addition they will combine this data with previously recorded data on how fast it takes for your house to heat up or cool down. This is fairly sophisticated and puts their system ahead of most other systems when it comes to this feature.

Why use tado° if you are thinking of using eq-3 MAX? eq-3 MAX has gateway to enable you to communicate with your heating from a remote site but eq-3 MAX does not have Geofencing like tado° but how are you going to integrate tado° to eq-3 MAX?

Your idea of using Indigo sounds very interesting and both Indigo Lite and Pro support hundreds of different smart devices using popular do-it-yourself home automation protocols such as: INSTEON, Z-Wave, and X10, right out of the box! Yes this is indeed very interesting suggestion from you - Indigo Light might be OK for you but I would double check the specifications just in case.

All your ideas are plausible apart from using eTRV's. You also need to make sure you can integrate tado° and eq-3 MAX.

Don't forget to cost both Heat Genius and Honeywell Evohome - I think you will find that their cost will not be far from what you have suggested but your return on investment (RoI) will be far better if you invest in Heat Genius or Honeywell Evohome.

Johannes

[Kevin]

One aspect to be aware of is that with any system that has just one master thermostat replacement that connects back to generate the 'call for heat' when it needs it, then you are dependent for some features on whether that device can communicate with the rest of the system zones and by how it can be additionally controlled e.g. the Internet . The placement of that thermostat is important, you often find them in the coldest room or the entrance hall. What I'm really meaning is that if the room in which the master thermostat is situated becomes satisfied temperature wise then the boiler will switch off and then other rooms can't get heat. If these rooms are scheduled to start later or even just raise their temperature then that won't be possible. This can leave you unable to heat other rooms, a situation I have currently, and hence my interest in this thread. You would have this problem with any e-TRV system and, based on some brief forum browsing also eq-3 Max I think, as these systems can't generate a heat call from rooms / zones.

You also need to make sure you can integrate tado° and eq-3 MAX.

Exactly... A dozen words that succintly say the same as my novel in the paragraph above... you should be a writer ;-)

As a workaround it is possible to have a constant call for heat placed on the boiler during all the times when any TRV might be scheduled to be warming a room. This relies on the boiler just cycling itself on and off based on how hot the heating flow is when it returns to the boiler, i.e. how much heat is being dissipated by the radiators. However this is less efficient then generating a demand on the boiler only when heat is needed, especially if that demand can be originated specifically by each/any room.

On fancier systems you can even generate an analog demand signal that might aggregate how much heat is needed across all rooms and hence influence how hot the flow temperature should be, similar to the way outside temperature compensation works. My existing system with its single infuriating bespoke digital bus thermostat has internal smarts that reduce the CH flow temperature down as the thermostat approaches being satisfied ultimately acheiving a balance of warm water provision and a stable room temp.... well intentioned but really messes up my other zones/rooms ! When I originally purchased it I was assured I could connect several of these digital thermostats onto the one digital bus but you can't, at least not without huge extra cost / parts. Because I have a lot of rooms/radiators + the geek aspects I have played over the years with a HA controlled system but although well intentioned it has always remained incomplete and flawed. My 'ToDo' list is ever growing and so EvoHome or HG seems a more practical path.

There are a lot of 'smarts' going on in these purposed heating controllers, learning heating curves, adapting the system over time and reacting to changes and it's in this area of expertise that the costs come in. With any HA based system you will need to program this yourself or just choose to ignore it and have a more basic system, which of course might well be very acceptable. Just how much fuel savings you will gain from using a fancier system vs a basic one is always debateable but the biggest savings I suspect comes from good insulation and zoning which can be implemented in a basic system with scheduling TRV's.

[Hot]

Efficient Radiators

One aspect to be aware of is that with any system that has just one master thermostat replacement that connects back to generate the 'call for heat' when it needs it, then you are dependent for some features on whether that device can communicate with the rest of the system zones and by how it can be additionally controlled e.g. the Internet . The placement of that thermostat is important, you often find them in the coldest room or the entrance hall. What I'm really meaning is that if the room in which the master thermostat is situated becomes satisfied temperature wise then the boiler will switch off and then other rooms can't get heat. If these rooms are scheduled to start later or even just raise their temperature then that won't be possible. This can leave you unable to heat other rooms, a situation I have currently, and hence my interest in this thread. You would have this problem with any e-TRV system and, based on some brief forum browsing also eq-3 Max I think, as these systems can't generate a heat call from rooms / zones.


Exactly... A dozen words that succintly say the same as my novel in the paragraph above... you should be a writer ;-)

As a workaround it is possible to have a constant call for heat placed on the boiler during all the times when any TRV might be scheduled to be warming a room. This relies on the boiler just cycling itself on and off based on how hot the heating flow is when it returns to the boiler, i.e. how much heat is being dissipated by the radiators. However this is less efficient then generating a demand on the boiler only when heat is needed, especially if that demand can be originated specifically by each/any room.

On fancier systems you can even generate an analog demand signal that might aggregate how much heat is needed across all rooms and hence influence how hot the flow temperature should be, similar to the way outside temperature compensation works. My existing system with its single infuriating bespoke digital bus thermostat has internal smarts that reduce the CH flow temperature down as the thermostat approaches being satisfied ultimately acheiving a balance of warm water provision and a stable room temp.... well intentioned but really messes up my other zones/rooms ! When I originally purchased it I was assured I could connect several of these digital thermostats onto the one digital bus but you can't, at least not without huge extra cost / parts. Because I have a lot of rooms/radiators + the geek aspects I have played over the years with a HA controlled system but although well intentioned it has always remained incomplete and flawed. My 'ToDo' list is ever growing and so EvoHome or HG seems a more practical path.

There are a lot of 'smarts' going on in these purposed heating controllers, learning heating curves, adapting the system over time and reacting to changes and it's in this area of expertise that the costs come in. With any HA based system you will need to program this yourself or just choose to ignore it and have a more basic system, which of course might well be very acceptable. Just how much fuel savings you will gain from using a fancier system vs a basic one is always debateable but the biggest savings I suspect comes from good insulation and zoning which can be implemented in a basic system with scheduling TRV's.

Before I bought into the world of Smart Intelligent Heating Control Systems I made sure that all doors and windows were as draft proof as possible. I added 30 cm additional insulation in my attic ceiling. I also replaced all my micro volume radiators with high water volume column radiators and even though I am very happy with my Heat Genius system I contribute some of my energy savings to this and because my gas boiler does not come on as often.

Do the basic stuff first and work out how much energy you save and only then go for something Smart and intelligent that will save you more energy and give you all the important favourable return on your investment.

[DavidH]

Many thanks both.
Just to clarify a bit, my para on "eTRV" was meant to indicate any sort of wireless TRV (is there a specific "eTRV"?), and eq-3 is what I am looking at.

I do not actually plan to integrate Tado and eq-3 at all as I can't quite see any advantage to integration.
AFAIK my needs are
1. a system that can turn the whole system OFF when we are away and ON before we come back. As we are forgetful, Geofencing (ie Tado) seems perfect and can be controlled over internet etc. I agree it has to be sited in the coldest room (and our hallway will ALWAYS be Calling for heat - so I suppose we will waste a tiny bit from the CH water circulating through the bypasses to the rads even if all rooms are OFF).
I think our pellet boiler with its thermal store is fairly immune to lots of little calls for heat as the thermal store is an enormous heat reservoir, and the boiler only fires twice a day usually.
Tado is, however, no use for any more sophisticated home control ie room by room. So:

2. room by room control when we are actually there (ie Tado is ACTIVE). This seems to me to mean wireless TRV, preferably controlled by a Thermostat in each room, with a general program of days/times/temps set. When I am in the room I want to be able to increase the temp 1-2oC if I am sitting quietly. eq-3 max will do this just fine without needing the CUBE central controller.

I do not quite see why the Boiler controller really needs to know much about the individual rooms - they seem to be different things. Our basic house warmth comes from two woodburning stoves (except when we first get there: what we REALLY want is remote lighting of the stove - with all the dangers that would involve!!!). As we already have our manual TRV's set, we don't really notice heat in a room being a problem until we are sitting still.
I can see some benefit from an overall controller tweaking what each room is doing, especially if HG's fuzzy logic can ope with our erratic lifestyle. If I can accept doing without that, then is there any point in the room thermostats talking to each other? If not, then eq-3 TRV + stat in each room seems perfect.

Am I missing something?

[Hot]

Close to perfect for your specific need

Many thanks both.
Just to clarify a bit, my para on "eTRV" was meant to indicate any sort of wireless TRV (is there a specific "eTRV"?), and eq-3 is what I am looking at.

I do not actually plan to integrate Tado and eq-3 at all as I can't quite see any advantage to integration.
AFAIK my needs are
1. a system that can turn the whole system OFF when we are away and ON before we come back. As we are forgetful, Geofencing (ie Tado) seems perfect and can be controlled over internet etc. I agree it has to be sited in the coldest room (and our hallway will ALWAYS be Calling for heat - so I suppose we will waste a tiny bit from the CH water circulating through the bypasses to the rads even if all rooms are OFF).
I think our pellet boiler with its thermal store is fairly immune to lots of little calls for heat as the thermal store is an enormous heat reservoir, and the boiler only fires twice a day usually.
Tado is, however, no use for any more sophisticated home control ie room by room. So:

2. room by room control when we are actually there (ie Tado is ACTIVE). This seems to me to mean wireless TRV, preferably controlled by a Thermostat in each room, with a general program of days/times/temps set. When I am in the room I want to be able to increase the temp 1-2oC if I am sitting quietly. eq-3 max will do this just fine without needing the CUBE central controller.

I do not quite see why the Boiler controller really needs to know much about the individual rooms - they seem to be different things. Our basic house warmth comes from two woodburning stoves (except when we first get there: what we REALLY want is remote lighting of the stove - with all the dangers that would involve!!!). As we already have our manual TRV's set, we don't really notice heat in a room being a problem until we are sitting still.
I can see some benefit from an overall controller tweaking what each room is doing, especially if HG's fuzzy logic can ope with our erratic lifestyle. If I can accept doing without that, then is there any point in the room thermostats talking to each other? If not, then eq-3 TRV + stat in each room seems perfect.

Am I missing something?

David H

I am relieved to hear that you were only paraphrasing when you mentioned eTRV - there is a place for a product like eTRV but it does not belong in your house.

tado° and eQ-3 MAX running independently on the other hand make perfect sense and can give a control of a system that you so much desire and a system that that can turn the whole system OFF when we are away and ON before you and your Mrs come back. I agree with you that there is really no dire need to integrate the two.

Geofencing in tado° is close to perfect for your specific need especially when it can be controlled from anywhere and the Geofencing will take care to lower your temperature after you leave the vicinity of your home and tado° will make sure the all important heating on on when you come home. If you install it in your coldest room as Kevin suggested, which you say is your hallway - you will squander a tiny bit of energy, however, it will assuredly not break your bank but you will always experience a warmer and more cosy home.

Your thermal store will be able to handle everything your throw at it and more. You are right that your Boiler controller does not really need to know what is happening around the rest of your home as long as everything is operated according to all UK safety standards.

There are huge benefit of having Smart Thermostatic Radiator Valves in every room but it is not necessary in all cases and lifestyles.

I believe you have covered everything.

Johannes