Multiple Power failure detection - Pointers for a newbee

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  • lsd
    Automated Home Lurker
    • Sep 2014
    • 4

    Multiple Power failure detection - Pointers for a newbee

    Hi

    I need to detect multiple power failures, from 1 to maybe 20 different circuits and be able to show which circuits have tripped and which ones are still active.
    The "sensors" need to be plugin and the "control" box portable, testing may last 5 mines to a couple of hours max
    The sensors have to be battery powered as I can't run wires everywhere.
    Transmission range is a problem, the units could be 3 or 4 floors apart and have to go through up to 3 feet thick stone walls (Live in France) or concrete slabs with metal re-enforcing.

    I initially thought of using wireless alarm system, loads of magnetic door detectors modified with 230V relays - cheap from aliexpress
    but you get what you pay for and not sure if the alarm control panel would display which individual "zone" have been triggered in any meaningful
    way plus the thick walls would be a problem.

    So looking into ZWave and mesh networking, possible using RFXCOM usb unit and Domotiga on a laptop - The problem is that the sensors I've found all cost around £30-£40, a bit too expensive for me

    So maybe Zeenodes (RFM12 modules) and Arduino/Raspberry Pi route - more flexible, more time programming, more fun maybe but not sure if
    the range problem can be fix

    So another option is Zigbee with Arduino/Raspberry Pi ?? - Appears to be latest greatest option at the moment, cheap RF bits but a lot more work in programming I think ??

    Or ???


    I've programmed 8051 chips (assembler/PLM 51) in a pass life and years of building electronic stuff since I was 13 but not done anything for a few years since so a bit out of date on the latest techno especially RF

    If I can get something working reliable, I might need to control relays in the sensor units at a later date so a 2 way system is really needed.

    Can anyone comment on a possible best direction to take ?

    Leigh
  • TimH
    Automated Home Legend
    • Feb 2004
    • 509

    #2
    I think I understand what you're trying to do, even if not the reason why...

    How about a batch of old wireless routers? and a laptop for monitoring running Netstumbler, or similar.
    Each router is plugged into an individual circuit and has its own SSID (e.g. "circuit1", "circuit2", etc.)
    A quick poll with Netstumbler or other wireless network software will indicate the presence, or otherwise, of a circuit as if the power is off, the router is off too.

    Old routers can be picked up for nothing on Freecycle in the UK, or cheaply on ebay. Not sure if France has an equivalent for Freecycle.

    Is this for a house, or multiple dwellings in a single property (ie.. flats, etc.)?

    The other way might be to hard wire relays into each circuit at the fuse box and then use something like this:

    and pickup the volt-free side of the relay to determine whether each circuit, and therefore each relay, is on or off. Put the unit on a wireless router and use a laptop to connect.

    EDIT: You could also look at the Netiom products instead of the Barionet unit:

    If you get the xAP version you can probably use xAP Floorplan (http://www.xapautomation.org/index.p...=xAP_Floorplan) to report circuit status (or just log-in with a web browser).


    HTH,
    Tim.
    Last edited by TimH; 18 September 2014, 01:27 PM. Reason: extra info
    My Flickr Photos

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    • lsd
      Automated Home Lurker
      • Sep 2014
      • 4

      #3
      Hi Tim

      Why I need to solve a problem

      I run an electrical services business here in France and often get called out to fix a problem circuit or to identify every socket/light/power outlet in a house/barn/business.

      French regs are different to the UK, every item like Fridge/Washing machine/dishwashers/water heaters ..etc have to have there own circuit + breaker
      You can have only 8 sockets per circuit and 5 light outlets per circuit so the amount of circuits mount up. I've done houses with 50 circuits and around 40 breakers. Can't get away with 2 ring circuits and 2 lighting and maybe an odd cooker outlet

      So when I get to a building, nearly all consumer units are not labelled, faded, or just wrong and bits get added over the years.

      Add that some building are very big, like I'm doing a water mill conversion which is on 4 levels and over 5000 sqm in size.

      Wall are often 3-4 feet thick, full of granite and/or quartz that make most normal WIFI signals are useless - Livebox in one room, you cannot get in signal in the next room

      I'm my house a 100M rated remote control cannot activate my shutters from 5M away due to 3 foot thick walls downstairs and a 1 foot thick metal reinforced
      concrete slab.

      So the two problems are :-
      To have multiple sensors to reduce the amount of time/effort/sweat I have to do racing around buildings and
      For the sensors to work in very bad (WIFI/RF) environments - If the final system is unreliable no point make it - I have to trust the whole system

      I thought about using routers but I would not get to see all of them most of the time.

      The Relay unit is a nice idea but that would mean disconnecting all the circuits from the consumer units, try not getting all the circuits mixed up (both Neutral AND Live wires go through the breaker so both have to be disconnected up and kept as pair) and then having to reconnect all the circuits again, which would mean I'd have to electrically test (Impedance) ALL the house circuits because I'd made changes to the consume unit - Just too much work.
      It can take me a whole day sometimes just to find every circuit and what it does
      Not much crawling around damp 4 foot high cellars for the sixth of seventh time just to find out which circuit is controlling the water pump

      That's why I thought about the mesh network and Zigbee, a RF hole could be filled by a extra module placed is a hallway or stairway to connect the system up.
      I want to be at the consumer unit with a control panel/laptop, flick the breakers and see what outlets get powered down - no stress or sweat

      Hope that fills in the missing blanks so any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

      Leigh

      Comment

      • lsd
        Automated Home Lurker
        • Sep 2014
        • 4

        #4
        BTW - I'll be offline for a week, caravan holiday, but keep the ideas coming and I'll answer any when I get back

        Thanks

        Leigh

        Comment

        • TimH
          Automated Home Legend
          • Feb 2004
          • 509

          #5
          Hi Leigh,

          Thanks for your reply. It seems like you have great job rummaging about in old French buildings

          I can see why it needs to be portable - if it was for your own house then the fixed relay installation might work, but yes, too much effort for each customer!
          (unless, of course, you put the relays in boxes, plug them in, and use (miles of?) bell wire to connect each circuit(=relay) back to a central monitoring box)

          I'm still fond of my router idea but perhaps each router needs to be on a long extension lead so that they all reach the stairwell (or wherever you get a good signal). You might also be better connecting a master access point to your laptop rather than relying on in onboard wifi card.

          I think if you're already concerned about wireless signal transmission, and sort of wireless solution will be tough.

          There's custom firmware for Linksys routers which can offer mesh networking - it might give enough functionality to do what you want, e.g.
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          If you end up with a long, strung out network, you might find that while circuits at the end of the string are still powered and on, an intermediate station has gone down and *everything* further can't be seen.

          The old skool way of course, is to have a mate with a plug-in inspection lamp or similar, and s/he shouts when the light goes on/off...

          HTH somewhat,
          Tim.
          My Flickr Photos

          Comment

          • TimH
            Automated Home Legend
            • Feb 2004
            • 509

            #6
            Just another thought, what about powerline networking?
            I don't know if the units you plug are assigned an IP address (and so can be pinged) or are effectively transparent.
            If transparent, perhaps a powerline unit coupled with an access point (or anything really, just to return the ping).

            HTH,
            Tim.
            My Flickr Photos

            Comment

            • chris_j_hunter
              Automated Home Legend
              • Dec 2007
              • 1713

              #7
              couple of thoughts ...

              how about using a few plug-in AirPort Express units to provide pervasive WiFi coverage :



              and how about current-clamps for sensing what's on - eg:



              or perhaps use several of these :



              with one of their display units :



              example set-up :



              not sure if the limit is ten or thirty sensors …
              Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 20 September 2014, 04:56 PM.
              Our self-build - going further with HA...

              Comment

              • lsd
                Automated Home Lurker
                • Sep 2014
                • 4

                #8
                First of all thanks for taking time to post your ideas - very much appreciated

                Will look at the wifi router - maybe I can use a linksys mesh network with a separate supply (temp wire from consumer unit so that they don't get powered down) Would only need 2 or 3 to cover most houses. Then connect routers/wifi access points/what ever I can get cheap/free to the linksys mesh network
                I've an old DLink wifi access point I can play with for the moment, the only problem is that it takes 30-45 seconds to boot up after each power down.

                Powerline extenders do not work very well with multiple RCD's installed in consumer units - I have one set which can't talk to each other even when both are on the same RCD circuit

                Current transformers - Yep thought about that, OK when looking at just one socket/outlet, install a 1KW heater and look for the 4.35Amps - problem is that getting access to the wires in a consumer unit can be difficult, short wires/no space between breakers - my clamp Amp meter is just too big and by the looks of the currentcost extra transmitter that may still be a problem. Really need to do more that one outlet at a time to speed everything up

                I still think I need something that plugs in a socket/outlet, is battery powered so that comms remains running when the power is removed a change of status
                is transmitted to a display box of some sort



                Next bit is a really another question I think but anyway
                Did like that the currentcost meter can have up to 10 sensor inputs, which initially appear to help out with another problem.
                Lots of my customers have holiday homes out here and they keep saying their electric bills are horrendous.
                They know home much power they use in 6/12 months because its on their EDF bill but no idea what was using the power and when.
                Now I have a EcoEye power logger which is great for showing how much power I'm using and when BUT not where as its can only do 1 total power used.

                So what I wanted was a power logger with say 10 sensors to record all the main power circuits - the plug in IAM modules look a good idea.
                BUT (has to be one of theses) all the multi loggers I've come across want to put the information on the "cloud" which is no good in France because internet access is a). expensive and b). not always available.

                Something else for me to look at :-)

                Leigh
                Last edited by lsd; 29 September 2014, 08:11 PM. Reason: Spelling :-)

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