Help with zoning my heating system

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  • smudger73
    • Oct 2014
    • 1

    Help with zoning my heating system

    Hi Folks,

    I live in an old house with very thick walls and a very old boiler. I'm getting a new boiler in a few weeks (Greenstar FS30CDI) and I'd like to look at improving my control of the heating system. The current piping is S-plan single zone heating and I'm not going to be doing any re-piping to provide for different zones (too difficult here). I need to zone it using smart TRVs.

    I'd like to have TRVs that demand heat as/when the room is below set temperature which may be different at different times of day. I understand that heat sensing at the TRV head can be unreliable due to the proximity of the radiator itself so I am concerned that the TRV may not be the best place for the heat sensor - are there systems with wall stats that control a wireless actuator in place of the TRV?

    Given the age of my house, it is unlikely that a central programmer receiver situated at the new boiler will be unable to communicate with all the zones (wall stats and/or TRVs) , so I either need range extenders/repeaters or something that I can plug into my existing ethernet RJ45 network wired throughout the house.

    In an ideal world, the wall stats would be RJ45 (perhaps PoE) to which I can assign a static IP and use a separate programmer (like the evohome controller) also connected to the same LAN to control/program the wall stats on the existing network. I don't see the point in introducing yet another wireless system when I have spent sometime installing a wifi LAN throughout the house.

    I've looked hard, but nothing seems to quite fit the bill so wanted to see if anyone had any suggestions.

    I like the evohome, but concerned about the lack of range extender given my old rambling house.
    I don't want to create yet another wireless network just for the heating control.
    I have no need to access the system remotely.

    Thoughts welcome!
  • Hot
    Automated Home Sr Member
    • Oct 2014
    • 50

    #2
    Heat Genius - My thoughts

    Originally posted by smudger73 View Post
    Hi Folks,

    I live in an old house with very thick walls and a very old boiler. I'm getting a new boiler in a few weeks (Greenstar FS30CDI) and I'd like to look at improving my control of the heating system. The current piping is S-plan single zone heating and I'm not going to be doing any re-piping to provide for different zones (too difficult here). I need to zone it using smart TRVs.

    I'd like to have TRVs that demand heat as/when the room is below set temperature which may be different at different times of day. I understand that heat sensing at the TRV head can be unreliable due to the proximity of the radiator itself so I am concerned that the TRV may not be the best place for the heat sensor - are there systems with wall stats that control a wireless actuator in place of the TRV?

    Given the age of my house, it is unlikely that a central programmer receiver situated at the new boiler will be unable to communicate with all the zones (wall stats and/or TRVs) , so I either need range extenders/repeaters or something that I can plug into my existing ethernet RJ45 network wired throughout the house.

    In an ideal world, the wall stats would be RJ45 (perhaps PoE) to which I can assign a static IP and use a separate programmer (like the evohome controller) also connected to the same LAN to control/program the wall stats on the existing network. I don't see the point in introducing yet another wireless system when I have spent sometime installing a wifi LAN throughout the house.

    I've looked hard, but nothing seems to quite fit the bill so wanted to see if anyone had any suggestions.

    I like the evohome, but concerned about the lack of range extender given my old rambling house.
    I don't want to create yet another wireless network just for the heating control.
    I have no need to access the system remotely.

    Thoughts welcome!
    Hi Smudger - My recommendation is for you to look into the Heat Genius Smart Intelligent Heating Controls. Their Z-Wave Smart Plugs will get through even the thickest of walls and leave you with a strong and reliable Z-Wave signal to operate your heating controls. I don't know your knowledge about how the Z-Wave wireless network works, but I see it by your writing that you have good grasps about what type of piping you have which is a S-plan, which happens to be the same piping arrangement as I have.

    I also see that you have good grasp how TRVs work and what their limitations are. You are correct when you say that heat sensing at the TRV head can be unreliable due to the proximity of the radiator itself and it can only measure up to a maximum 20-30 cm distance away from the TRV head. Any curtain or furniture in close proximity can also affect the accuracy of your TRVs. Their accuracy is further restricted if they have been installed wrongly i.e. vertically instead of horizontally or configured wrongly, when installed in the first place. However, if you use a Heat Genius 3 in 1 Multi Sensor wall based thermostat you can pull your curtain fully over the new LC13 TRV, without them having any detrimental effect to the room temperature.

    I don't know at this stage what make your TRV is? Heat Genius supplies TRV adapters for most UK standard TRVs. The solution that Heat Genius use is to replace the TRVs heads on your radiators. Don'y worry, there is no plumbing involved - it is only the head cover itself that is normally replaced with a Heat Genius/ Danfoss LC13 Smart Intelligent TRV. It's not the LC13 TRVs that controls what the temperature should be in the room - it is a tiny Heat Genius 3 in 1 Multi Sensor (Motion, Illumination, Temperature). This rather small but highly accurate Temperature room sensor measures the ambient temperature and any movement in the room. It is this sensor that provides the necessary communication in order to accurately control the temperature inside each Zone or a room.

    The way the Z-Wave works is not like most network as there is little or nothing to configure. The Z-Wave uses 868.42 MHz radio frequency to communicate. The network creates itself automatically by the components you use. You get enough Smart Plugs included as standard with your system. There is an advantage of having more Smart Plugs as your Z-wave Mesh wireless network becomes denser and each LC13 or 3 in 1 Multi Sensor will end up having more than one route for its wireless signal and the same logic applies to the heart of the system the Heat Genius Hub.

    Smart plugs are used to boost the signal in your home for the TRV, room sensors, boiler controller and house thermostat.
    Your standard Heat Genius system comes with a number of smart plugs to make sure your system work’s reliably.

    For you to get a better understanding how this works - can I suggest that you read my installation review article that is published in the Review section of Automated Home website. If you follow my link you can read my article and it will give you a good understanding how easy it is to setup a reliable system for almost any type of home and indeed even homes like yours with very thick walls.


    I have also written few more Posts/ Articles or explanation of my experience with the Heat Genius. Read the two articles that I have contributed by clicking on this link: http://www.wordpress-1219309-4387497...t-Genius/page2

    I noted from your post that you did not have any need to access the system remotely. The system comes standard with built in Gateway (No extra cost) and it gives you the option to access your system if you so desire at a later date. The system can also work as a WiFi controlled device only.

    Your previous investment of installing Ethernet RJ45 network throughout your home might reap some benefit for you and might come in very handy when you come to decide where is the best place to locate your Heat Genius Hub.

    I am sure you have plenty to think about but if I can help you in any way, just send me a reply and I shall see what I can do for you...
    Last edited by Hot; 17 October 2014, 08:06 PM. Reason: Text correction
    I am totally independent writer and my writing is not skewed in any way by receiving payment for my writing. I reduce my gas bills by using Heat Genius Smart Intelligent Heating Controls with more efficient Column radiators.

    Comment

    • SensibleHeatUK
      Moderator
      • Feb 2009
      • 228

      #3
      The proximity of the TRV to be he radiator does not unduly influence the room temperature measurement even when the radiator is running as long as there are no cabinets or long curtains covering the TRV. We tested this initially with the Hobeywell HR80 and separate room sensors and found little variation between the two locations, generally less than 0.5 degrees, with the TRV location reading lower than the wall sensor.

      In any case Honeywell actually fit two sensing elements in their radiator controller to check the differential between them to "adjust" the sensor readings automatically should there be any influence from the radiator.

      Of course if you prefer to use a wall sensor with Evo you can, there are several wireless options you can choose from and we supply thimble sensor version (a remote sensor which wires to our specially modified transmitter). If you choose Evo I would suggest trying the built-in room sensor first.

      With regards to range, depending on the type of stone it is not a major problem providing that your Evo is centrally located. 868MHz penetrates the structure much more easily than higher frequencies, and openings through the structure for doorways etc help too. I've often been surprised at just how far the signals have reached on some of our larger retrofit installations where we thought there may be problems yet the kit has worked reliably without issue.
      Sensible Heat
      SensibleHeat.co.uk

      Comment

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