Why is it so difficult to get clear, DIY instructions for installing a smart control

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  • andrewh
    Automated Home Lurker
    • Dec 2014
    • 7

    Why is it so difficult to get clear, DIY instructions for installing a smart control

    Hello, I'm a newbie in the forum so forgive me if these subjects have been covered. I'm completely sold on smart heating control - which should have me loads.

    I'm thinking on Honeywell Evohome or the German Max! from eq-3.de , with an internet gateway.

    The latter is a great price. Although I've had some great support from Evohome in the UK, I still don't know how to stitch a smart system into my existing system, which is

    an oil-fired boiler (Chappée Sempra Progress ) with an "Ecocontrol" SP0B simple controller which adjusts the boiler temperature and the hot water temperature.

    Absolutely ZERO on the Chappee website about home automation ("la Domotique" in French)

    The main, programmable room thermostat (Honeywell AQ6000) is attached to the Honeywell control panel (date - maybe 1995) which controls the 3-way motorized valve

    SUrely, I should be able to remove all this old Honeywell controller and replace with an up-to-date system ? It should be a question of wiring a few components together, then doing the programming !

    BUT, my house is in France, and no-one likes the consumer to get into the professional domain. All the professional help I've tried to get in France has been completely off the mark. And - outrageously expensive.Hayman P1060381.jpgHayman P1060380.jpg

    I don't need a *professional* to program for me, do internet gateways, nor to stick on thermostatic radiator heads !

    Maybe I have to learn German to figure our the Max! system.
  • Rameses
    Industry Expert
    • Nov 2014
    • 446

    #2
    I have tried to help here an show there are some instructions worth using - please see my other post. I have included the installer guide for evohome - which was redesigned to be easier to follow. This has wiring examples. You also might want to check out a compromise solution - there are many installers that are willing to sell their 'time' in helping you fit the solution remotely - if that's the path you truly want to take. Shout if you need suggestions.
    getconnected.honeywell.com | I work for Honeywell. Any posts I make are purely to help if I can. Any personal views expressed are my own

    Comment

    • SensibleHeatUK
      Moderator
      • Feb 2009
      • 228

      #3
      I'm guessing that your AQ6000 unit is actually providing weather-compensated control of your heating circuit using the 3-port mixing valve you photographed, in which case you need to think a bit more about what you want to achieve. If you plan is to have room by room zone control then you could look to simplify the the system and remove the mixing valve, which makes the installation and control a lot more straight forward provided you can get the wiring details for your boiler and its associated controller. If you want to retain weather compensation then you either need leave the AQ6000 in place but try and set it so it does not interfere with the new "smart" controls, or replace the AQ6000 with something else that will allow better integration.

      Honeywell have a much more comprehensive plantroom controller called "Smile", but this is most definitely not DIY friendly when it comes to setup as it is a professional controller that provides sophisticated HVAC control options, and even seasoned controls engineers would be lost without training on how the unit works and should be configured for many typical applications. It is also not cheap, probably costing a similar amount to the complete Evo system you would want for the Evo controls. Another alternative is to move away from weather compensation entirelty but fit a basic mixing valve controller that provides a fixed temperature output - much cheaper to buy and very simple to wire in and set up provided your mixing valve actuator runs on mains voltage.

      Setting up a basic Evo system is not difficult, we've supplied systems to customers with holiday homes abroad and been able to offer some technical advice via email or phone fro them to complete the setup. However these installations were on systems with a more traditional boiler setup fitted with a heating circuit and hot water circuit fed direct from the boiler via 2-port valves (often called an S-Plan setup in the UK).

      We do provide on-site commissioning too but this adds to cost once airfares, car hire etc are added to our day-rate.

      So to answer your question more directly, you've got a non-standard heating system design (in comparison to most standard residential installations), and this does not "fit" the controls that are designed for the mass-market. If you simplify your boiler plant design then you open up the wide range of systems currently available, or stick with your system but expect to need the help of a suitably experienced controls supplier who can help guide you to a comprehensive controls package that they can support for you to set up by yourself.

      You'll still need a friendly local electrician who's happy to re-wire as necessary to accommodate the new controls, so that's something you'll need to investigat further before you can take things much further.
      Sensible Heat
      SensibleHeat.co.uk

      Comment

      • andrewh
        Automated Home Lurker
        • Dec 2014
        • 7

        #4
        Thanks very much to both of you for the suggestions.

        The AQ6000 does indeed include weather-compensation, with an outdoor temperature sensor.

        Frost control is a very important function - I have had one burst-pipe episode when the outside temperature got down to -10 C, and then a couple of inches of water in my cellar.

        (I think the Evohome is planned to include this external temperature sensor in a later release ?)




        Hayman P1060374.jpgHayman P1060377.jpg

        You say [/I]If you simplify your boiler plant design[/I] - could you explain a bit more ?

        Buying components is not difficult, but re-welding the pipework is a bit past my competence.

        But I had thought that 3-way mixing valves were quite common - at least in France.



        Thanks

        Comment

        • SensibleHeatUK
          Moderator
          • Feb 2009
          • 228

          #5
          Adding a frost stat for the plant room is not difficult, and it would be a standard function of any plant room controller. For example you would have multi-stage frost protection from a Smile controller, running pumps first, and if water temperature gets too low then the boiler is fired to heat the water.

          Evo provides minimum room temperatures and minimum hot water temperatures which would also run the pumps and boiler system if needed.

          If the AQ6000 has inputs for external timeclock control then it could be retained for use with Evo, using the heating demand from Evo to drive the AQ unit. If you have full room zoning I would recommend using a shallow "slope" for the compensation curve as aggressive weather compensation will affect the optimum start routine and rates of change of room temperature that Evo measures and uses to improve its control of room temperature.

          Aquatrol controllers have been popular for system based on weather compensation, but they have been out of production for a while now so it is difficult to find documentation for them and when they eventually fail they need to be replaced with a different system. If you have the installation documentation for your particular unit then it should include wiring details which would help determine if it allows external control operation.
          Sensible Heat
          SensibleHeat.co.uk

          Comment

          • andrewh
            Automated Home Lurker
            • Dec 2014
            • 7

            #6
            Thanks again. I am not a heating engineer so this is stretching me a bit.

            If the control of the 3-way mixing valve is difficult, can't I just disengage it and leave it open to the boiler ?

            Really, I am hoping that it should be possible to do away with all the outdated AQ6000 Honeywell control system ..... it is 20 years old

            This is the Chappee installation stuff - http://www.chappee.lt/files/SempraProgress_en.pdf The controller I have is the most basic one. Ecocontrol SP Obs which has a connection point for a 2-wire thermostat.


            Rameses, I could be interested in paying for distance support from a professional to sort everything out - maybe in Q1 next year! But lets see where this goes first.

            Comment

            • SensibleHeatUK
              Moderator
              • Feb 2009
              • 228

              #7
              Leaving the three port valve fitted with the actuator set to the fully open position (ie no mixing) could be done, the valve will eventually seize through non-movement, but if you don't intend to use it again then that would irrelevant. If you did decide to return to mixing valve control you would need to replace the valve and actuator at that time.

              Then you would need to sort out the controls to deal with the boiler, primary pump, hot water cylinder & control valve, heating pump etc. Evo will be able to deal with these but you will probably want a circuit diagram drawn up by the controls supplier to show how it all needs to be wired, especially if you have to deal with foreign tradesmen who may not easily follow a verbal description in a second language. This also ensures the system can be properly tested during commissioning, which will be important if you are relying on remote support from the UK.

              I'd strongly recommend that you create a wiring centre using numbered terminals to which all of the equipment connects (both controls and plant), it might sound like overkill for a residential system, but should the system fail to work at some point you will find fault finding and testing is much easier and faster with a properly documented and labelled wiring centre. Otherwise you'll probably end up with an enclosure with all ofthe cables stuffed into a variety of terminal strips which makes cable tracing and termination testing difficult (if not impossible)!
              Sensible Heat
              SensibleHeat.co.uk

              Comment

              • andrewh
                Automated Home Lurker
                • Dec 2014
                • 7

                #8
                Mr Sensible Heat,

                Thanks again.

                Just looking at the picture of my 220 volt 3-port mixer valve, (which has an external Honeywell temperature sensor strapped on to the hot water pipe, just above the Grundfoss pump) - surely this is acting separately from the rest of the control system ? The valve just adjusts itself, according to the temperature of the output water ?

                So if I can make sure I can do that function - independent of my Evohome or whatever - all the rest is simplified ?

                Comment

                • SensibleHeatUK
                  Moderator
                  • Feb 2009
                  • 228

                  #9
                  The Aqautrol unit is controlling the mixing valve and also sending a demand signal to the boiler, so you need to check if the heating demand signal from Evo can be passed into the Aquatrol so it can then operate the mixing circuit and boiler demand. If not you will need to remove the boiler from the Aquatrol unit (and provide your own additional plantroom frost protecetion) and ensure it operates the mixing valve and heating pump continuously in case the heating circuit is needed, or replace it with a new controller that can be connected to Evo. If you leave the mixing valve running permanently you would also need to add an automatic bypass after the pump (if one is not fitted) and accept that this bit of pipework would be heated whenever the boiler fired, even if it was firing only due to a hot water demand. If Evo had the rest of the heating circuit shut off the hot water would only be circulating as far as the bypass, and not travelling all around the house.

                  As I said before, for what might seem a simple plantroom arrangement there are quite a few issues to consider when you come to upgrade your existing controls!
                  Sensible Heat
                  SensibleHeat.co.uk

                  Comment

                  • andrewh
                    Automated Home Lurker
                    • Dec 2014
                    • 7

                    #10
                    Thanks for all your suggestions, Rameses and SensibleHeatUK.

                    I think I'm going to have to wait a bit longer to see consumer products which will do the whole business - including intelligent boiler control - with internet connectivity - , control of 3-way mixing valve, and outside temperature sensing. I don't really want to lay down an intelligent radiator control on the top of an out-of-date system. (By which I mean the Honeywell AQ-6000 and also the Chappee Ecocontrol boiler controller)

                    I hear from eQ-Max that they are going to come out in English as well as German - which will be easier. And that they may consider doing boiler controls. It seems to me that they are about as advanced as Honeywell.

                    But - Honeywell - there's a market here ! In my opinion, it does not have to be all that complicated. I think it's going to be a consumer-led market, not a super-expensive installer-controlled thing.

                    Comment

                    • Hot
                      Automated Home Sr Member
                      • Oct 2014
                      • 50

                      #11
                      Clear, DIY instructions for installing a smart control

                      Originally posted by andrewh View Post
                      Thanks for all your suggestions, Rameses and SensibleHeatUK.

                      I think I'm going to have to wait a bit longer to see consumer products which will do the whole business - including intelligent boiler control - with internet connectivity - , control of 3-way mixing valve, and outside temperature sensing. I don't really want to lay down an intelligent radiator control on the top of an out-of-date system. (By which I mean the Honeywell AQ-6000 and also the Chappee Ecocontrol boiler controller)

                      I hear from eQ-Max that they are going to come out in English as well as German - which will be easier. And that they may consider doing boiler controls. It seems to me that they are about as advanced as Honeywell.

                      But - Honeywell - there's a market here ! In my opinion, it does not have to be all that complicated. I think it's going to be a consumer-led market, not a super-expensive installer-controlled thing.


                      Andrew H - I have been following your thread on this forum with interest. You clearly know what you want from a new system.

                      You have now looked at few heating control manufacturers and you are still not happy with what they are offering as a possible solution to your situation in France.

                      Have you looked at Heat Genius? You can check out their simple and clear, DIY instructions for installing their smart controls. I have now had this system for over a year now and I did the installation myself and I am very happy with the control I have over my heating system.

                      You can access their installation instructions on their website (www.heatgenius.net) Click on Questions and you will be able to access their Installation and User Guide.

                      Heat Genius can be easily connected to an Oil-fired boiler and can handle the hot water temperature.

                      You could do worse by not looking at their system.
                      I am totally independent writer and my writing is not skewed in any way by receiving payment for my writing. I reduce my gas bills by using Heat Genius Smart Intelligent Heating Controls with more efficient Column radiators.

                      Comment

                      • andrewh
                        Automated Home Lurker
                        • Dec 2014
                        • 7

                        #12
                        Thank you Mr Hot for your suggestion - I'll look at this Heat Genius stuff.

                        I was awoken in the night recently by the roar in the chimney (the oil boiler cycles all the time to keep itself up to temperature (and keep the hot water to temperature), The thought of those euros burning up in the chimney keeps me awake !

                        And so then I was thinking of the things that a system should be able to do for me. It's all pretty straightforward, with basic sensors controlled by a microprocessor.

                        And it will, I hope, come soon.

                        The temperature outside has been down to -5 C.

                        The two mission critical components in the house are the boiler (and basic heating circuit) and the internet gateway

                        The "home automation" system should all be through ONE internet gateway.

                        A. I need to know the boiler is working correctly, 7/7 24/24, from any place. If it fails for any reason I want an immediate alarm sent to my smart phone.

                        B. The boiler should NOT come on at night when it's not needed (in the short term, one can use a 24-hour mechanical timer).

                        B. I would like a wi-fi camera in the boiler room to look at the controls. (Maybe some other wi-fi cameras elsewhere, inside or out, for security purposes)

                        C. I'd like to know how much fuel oil I've got in the tank, and how much I'm using. (Not necessary of course for gas boilers, but I guess people would like to know how much they're spending). A fill of 3500 litres costs an arm and a leg.

                        D. THEN a 12 zone smart thermostatic radiator system that learns our household habits, with integrated external temperature sensing for swift reaction to external cold snaps in particular.

                        This lot should give me peace of mind, perhaps. But it's nothing very dramatic.


                        How does that sound ?

                        Comment

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