Home automation newbie - go gently...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • garmcqui
    Automated Home Guru
    • Jan 2015
    • 119

    Home automation newbie - go gently...

    Afternoon all.

    We just moved into a new build 4-bed house and I'm looking at ways of automating the gas fired heating and hot water systems.

    At the minute we have a two-zone central heating system. One zone is the living room, which has it's own wireless (I think) Danfoss TP5000 programmable room thermostat:

    image.jpg

    The 2nd zone is the heating in the rest of the house, and is controlled by a Danfoss TP9000i programmable thermostat (which also does the hot water):

    image.jpg

    This main programmer is located in the airing cupboard upstairs, but there is a remote thermostat located in the hallway downstairs.

    So, what would people recommend to automate this system? I've looked at loop, hive etc, but none seem to fit the bill. I'd like to be able to control individual room temperatures, but none of the systems I've seen seem to cater for dual zone systems.

    Any advice appreciated,

    Thanks
  • SensibleHeatUK
    Moderator
    • Feb 2009
    • 228

    #2
    You either need to use individual smart stats to control zone valves, or a multi-zone smart system such as Honeywell Evo.

    If you go for something like Evo and full room-by-room zoning then you can re-wire the existing two heating valves to operate in parallel whenever any zone needs heat as the zoning is now done at room level instead. As far as I'm aware there are no systems that allow you to zone at room level and also allow you to split rooms across multiple zone valves further upstream. There are ways to "hack" this using extra equipment, but it becomes more costly, more complicated to use (as you have to ensure the zoning commands stay in sync), and is not supported by the controls manufacturers so they will not offer any help/advice directly. So for this reason don't be too hung up on how the existing zone valves get used so long as you are zoning at room level.

    You might also decide that it is not worth fitting controls to some areas (such as landings/hallways, cloakrooms/WCs etc) as the existing radiator TRV may work well enough - it would have the potential to heat when any other "active" zone on the system operates so does not necessarily need "clever" control. However the major benefit of the modular/wireless systems is that you have the chance to try approaches like this first and in time if you feel you would benefit by having full control you can easily add the extra zones at any stage.
    Sensible Heat
    SensibleHeat.co.uk

    Comment

    • garmcqui
      Automated Home Guru
      • Jan 2015
      • 119

      #3
      Thanks for replying.

      So if I decided to go with the Evohome system, what kit would I need to start with?

      I mean, currently the gas boiler is downstairs in the kitchen, but the cylinder, pump and three zone valves are in the airing cupboard upstairs. Would I need a seperate relay box for each of the zone valves and then another for the boiler? What about the pump?
      Last edited by garmcqui; 3 January 2015, 07:04 PM.

      Comment

      • SensibleHeatUK
        Moderator
        • Feb 2009
        • 228

        #4
        The smallest system would be a Evo Base Pack, but if you want to start controlling radiators straight away you'll also need some HR92s. Add a hot water kit for hot water control, and a communications lack for smartphone/tablet App control.
        Sensible Heat
        SensibleHeat.co.uk

        Comment

        • garmcqui
          Automated Home Guru
          • Jan 2015
          • 119

          #5
          So the base pack comes with one wireless relay box - will this control the boiler, the central heating pump and the zone valve?

          Comment

          • SensibleHeatUK
            Moderator
            • Feb 2009
            • 228

            #6
            Yes, there is a relay in the base pack. It controls the heating zone valve, which has an integral switch that in turn operates the boiler and pump when it opens.
            Sensible Heat
            SensibleHeat.co.uk

            Comment

            • garmcqui
              Automated Home Guru
              • Jan 2015
              • 119

              #7
              Ah, I didn't know the zone valve controlled the boiler? So if I go upstairs now and push the lever on the zone valve across to the manually open position, it will cause the boiler and pump to come on? I always assumed the programmer was what called for heat.

              Also, before I order a few HR92 trv's, does anyone know if they will fit onto my existing Pegler Terrier TRV's, or will I need to order adapters too?

              Thanks?
              Last edited by garmcqui; 3 January 2015, 11:06 PM.

              Comment

              • SensibleHeatUK
                Moderator
                • Feb 2009
                • 228

                #8
                If the Pegler TRVs are EN215 with the M30x1.5mm thread/stroke then the Honeywell controllers will be a straight fit.

                The lever on the zone valve often does operate the end-switch when moved to the open position, although it not always guaranteed for every make/model.
                Sensible Heat
                SensibleHeat.co.uk

                Comment

                • HenGus
                  Automated Home Legend
                  • May 2014
                  • 1001

                  #9
                  Originally posted by garmcqui View Post
                  Thanks for replying.

                  So if I decided to go with the Evohome system, what kit would I need to start with?

                  I mean, currently the gas boiler is downstairs in the kitchen, but the cylinder, pump and three zone valves are in the airing cupboard upstairs. Would I need a seperate relay box for each of the zone valves and then another for the boiler? What about the pump?
                  Plus one for Evohome. I have a 2 motorised valves in my airing cupboard: one for HW and the other for CH. All the relays are located in the airing cupboard (noting Honeywell's advice on separation to avoid wireless interference). The HW kit controls my stored water in the range 55 to 6OC: it is set to come on early morning and early evening. The rest of my home is divided into 12 zones: 11 zones are temp controlled by the TRVs (reporting back to the controller) and zone 12 is via the controller's built in thermostat. The system is working brilliantly. It is intelligent and calculates when to turn on/off zone heating to achieve a particular temp at a time. My advice to anyone looking at automation would be ignore Hive and Nest and just buy the Evohome controller, HW kit and gateway. This will do everything that Hive does but with the potential for expansion.

                  Just one note of caution. Installers will quote 40% savings; however, this is based on a property with no controls or TRVs. There are savings to be made; however, the real advantage is the flexibility that home automation offers. At the moment, I am heating a kitchen/family room, hall/landing, study and bedroom with en-suite bathroom. The rest of my 5 bed home is on a notional 8C setting which can be changed with a simple swipe on my iPhone.

                  Finally, my advice would be to wall mount the controller if you can. My installer used the power supply to my old hall thermostat. The controller looks neat on the wall; it is out of harm's way and out of reach of little fingers.

                  Comment

                  • The EVOHOME Shop
                    Site Sponsor
                    • Dec 2014
                    • 483

                    #10
                    Originally posted by HenGus View Post
                    Just one note of caution. Installers will quote 40% savings; however, this is based on a property with no controls or TRVs.
                    This is not necessarily true.

                    If you think of the way a normal Part L Building Regulations programmer, room Thermostat and manual TRV controlled system works there is certainly scope to save 30-40%. How many people fit and forget manual TRV's? The amount of properties I have been to over the years and all TRV's have been on setting 5! Also what do the numbers on the TRV's actually mean, how many people read the user guides? All energy wasting potential not helped by the fact that most room thermostats are located in the 'coldest room' and turned up to 22-25 degrees to allow all the TRV controlled rooms to get up to temperature (or over-temperature as the majority of cases are). All very wasteful practices!

                    Honeywell evohome allows easy and accurate control of each and every room when you 'smart zone'. Firstly HR92 Radiator Controllers are much more accurate than manual TRV's (0.5 degree accuracy VS 1-2 degree accuracy with a wax/liquid expansion TRV). The way wax/liquid expansion TRV's operate also gives way to the room temperature peak's and troughs (much like a 'wave' of heat). Secondly comfort is increased at individual room level to the point which you can individually time and temperature control each room you occupy (and don't occupy). Where before you would have to run around the house adjusting TRV's (no-one does this simply too much effort involved) you can do everything at a touch of a button on the evohome Controller or on your smart phone or tablet.

                    Certainly Yorkshire/Terrier seem to think that just by replacing manual TRV's with their i-temp range you will save 30% alone - http://www.saveonheatingbills.co.uk/ in view of this I would say fitting evohome has potential to save more than 40% to a frugal end-user!

                    Comment

                    • HenGus
                      Automated Home Legend
                      • May 2014
                      • 1001

                      #11
                      Page 18 of the attached PDF:




                      You make a good point on how people use manual heating controls; however, imho, quoting a 40% saving is somewhat misleading. I note that the latest Evohome brochure quotes the following:

                      Upgrading your basic timer and thermostat controls to evohome smart zoning could deliver as much as 40% savings on heating your home.

                      This is an entirely accurate statement; however, I suspect the many people who have installed Evohome or Heat Genius will be getting nowhere near a 40% saving as they were already energy-saving savvy; turning down manual TRVs in un-used rooms or even turning radiators off.

                      FWiW, I am saving money; however, I suspect that it will be many years before I recover the cost of my Evohome installation.

                      Comment

                      • The EVOHOME Shop
                        Site Sponsor
                        • Dec 2014
                        • 483

                        #12
                        Originally posted by HenGus View Post
                        Page 18 of the attached PDF:




                        You make a good point on how people use manual heating controls; however, imho, quoting a 40% saving is somewhat misleading. I note that the latest Evohome brochure quotes the following:

                        Upgrading your basic timer and thermostat controls to evohome smart zoning could deliver as much as 40% savings on heating your home.

                        This is an entirely accurate statement; however, I suspect the many people who have installed Evohome or Heat Genius will be getting nowhere near a 40% saving as they were already energy-saving savvy; turning down manual TRVs in un-used rooms or even turning radiators off.

                        FWiW, I am saving money; however, I suspect that it will be many years before I recover the cost of my Evohome installation.
                        I am very aware of the Salford University document, indeed I have promoted it many times. This was based on a natural gas fired system and a basic 2010 part L building regs system. Evohome exceeds 2010 part L by quite some way and is much more accurate in its level of control the system Salford University used.

                        But basic heating system facts - turned down TRV's in un-occupied (but normally used rooms i.e. not unused bedrooms turned to frost protection) will still heat up to the set point and waste energy in doing so. If you are not in the room simply don't heat it and evohome has the ability to do this either by schedule or at the touch of a button.

                        I agree the savvy eco-warrior heating system user may not get the full 40% benefit but lets face facts - the majority of people are lazy when it comes to adjusting TRV's and heating controls, controls are misunderstood or incorrectly set and on/off characteristics in basic heating system components cause inefficient systems. Heating engineers installing boilers on 'price' (especially on building sites) will skimp on controls - FACT. Upgrading away from these controls to something that has a good user interface and can be intelligently and accurately controlled will have excellent saving potential even on new properties!

                        I fitted one of the first installer 'trial' evohome systems a year ago into my Mum and Dad's house (gas fired combi boiler, 10 rads, one hallway fitted with non-digital room thermostat). My dad (a heating engineer of 50 years) is now much more frugal with his heating system, as he accurately knows the temperatures room by room and he makes sure he doesn't heat any rooms he is not occupying at that point in time. This has caused him to save money - FACT. The savings are in the region of 35% compared to the previous years gas bill, but this is an estimate as my Mum and Dad also cook with gas (but assumption is that their cooking habits have remained the same).

                        I agree it is difficult to gauge accurately how much each person 'could save' and agree not everyone will 'save 40%' (more in particular with underfloor heated homes), but in my experience (as a second generation plumbing and heating installer) the majority of 'Joe public' certainly have the potential to do so and percentage saving figures should not take away the fact that a 'smart controlled' home will save much more on heating bills than one not.

                        Comment

                        • HenGus
                          Automated Home Legend
                          • May 2014
                          • 1001

                          #13
                          Originally posted by The EVOHOME Shop View Post

                          I agree it is difficult to gauge accurately how much each person 'could save' and agree not everyone will 'save 40%' (more in particular with underfloor heated homes), but in my experience (as a second generation plumbing and heating installer) the majority of 'Joe public' certainly have the potential to do so and percentage saving figures should not take away the fact that a 'smart controlled' home will save much more on heating bills than one not.
                          I do not disagree with anything that you have said; however, having Evohome (or Heat Genius for that matter) installed is a significant investment. I have 21 TRVs. I made my purchase knowing that my saving on gas was likely to be less than 40%. That said, I am very happy with the system - not least, because I no longer have to crawl under study tables etc. Overall, I would give the system an 'A-': the lack of a web browser to see at a glance - and change - zone settings, and a reporting function is the system's weakness. FWiW, one of the installers that quoted for my installation made the very fair point that most people would probably get a better Return on Investment by investing in a modern boiler.

                          Comment

                          • The EVOHOME Shop
                            Site Sponsor
                            • Dec 2014
                            • 483

                            #14
                            Originally posted by HenGus View Post
                            I do not disagree with anything that you have said; however, having Evohome (or Heat Genius for that matter) installed is a significant investment. I have 21 TRVs. I made my purchase knowing that my saving on gas was likely to be less than 40%. That said, I am very happy with the system - not least, because I no longer have to crawl under study tables etc. Overall, I would give the system an 'A-': the lack of a web browser to see at a glance - and change - zone settings, and a reporting function is the system's weakness. FWiW, one of the installers that quoted for my installation made the very fair point that most people would probably get a better Return on Investment by investing in a modern boiler.
                            I completely agree a full evohome system is not cheap, but a very worth while long term investment (you can take it with you should you move home - well at least the HR92's easily). The evohome system does have some limitations, but is a really good step in the right direction when people want to ensure any heating used in the home is done very efficiently - which brings me onto your second point about boilers!

                            Most people do turn to modern condensing boilers to save money. There is no doubt an A-rated condensing boiler is a good investment when the existing boiler is D-rated or below. The problem I personally find is that people skimp on heating systems and because of this, condensing technology is not maximised. A boiler swap will rarely give you the full efficiency the boiler is capable of and therefore maximum savings will not be made. The main reason is due to not changing the old radiators to sizes that maximise the 'condensing effect' of the boiler (return temperature of 54 degrees or lower for a long time). This can lead to extended payback periods due to loss of boiler efficiency (B-rated boiler syndrome).

                            I find lots of homes I go into have 'undersized' radiators, which are fine when using a standard efficiency boiler but to achieve a 20 degree Celsius drop across the flow and return of a condensing boiler fired heating system (once up to operating temperature) is a difficult thing to do and the boiler won't stay A-rated for very long (even if the boiler has clever things like fully modulating pumps and weather compensation).

                            The fact is good advice and knowledgeable heating engineers are dying out in the UK. Excellent standards are also being compromised due to cost. I personally have stopped doing boiler installations in our area and have been concentrating on our smart controls business, as most people don't know a good heating installation from a bad one (and there are a lot of bad ones). At the prices some 'heating' installers are charging now, there is just not the margins in the priced jobs to allow you to do the work to the standards it should be done (including basic flushing of existing systems).

                            When boiler installations you come across look like this it is time to pack up your tools...

                            IMG_0645.jpg
                            Last edited by The EVOHOME Shop; 4 January 2015, 09:57 PM. Reason: bad spelling

                            Comment

                            • InstallerDave
                              • Jan 2015
                              • 1

                              #15
                              Originally posted by garmcqui View Post
                              Afternoon all.

                              We just moved into a new build 4-bed house and I'm looking at ways of automating the gas fired heating and hot water systems.

                              At the minute we have a two-zone central heating system. One zone is the living room, which has it's own wireless (I think) Danfoss TP5000 programmable room thermostat

                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]447[/ATTACH]

                              The 2nd zone is the heating in the rest of the house, and is controlled by a Danfoss TP9000i programmable thermostat (which also does the hot water):

                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]448[/ATTACH]

                              This main programmer is located in the airing cupboard upstairs, but there is a remote thermostat located in the hallway downstairs.

                              So, what would people recommend to automate this system? I've looked at loop, hive etc, but none seem to fit the bill. I'd like to be able to control individual room temperatures, but none of the systems I've seen seem to cater for dual zone systems.

                              Any advice appreciated,

                              Thanks
                              Hi! Since you're looking for zoned heating control, I can tell you from experience that there is one that does zoned heating (by controlling your radiator valves) and also allows you to control hot water. I personally installed their system for a few customers and they are really happy. The company is called Heat Genius, Google it and have a look.

                              The way it works, they will replace your existing thermostat with their Genius Hub, which is the main component of the system and is made of three parts - Genius Hub, the Boiler Controller and the Room Thermostat. You'll be able to control your heating from any mobile device with access to the internet.

                              For your hot water, you can easily set a time schedule for periods where you want hot water to be made on the App. The system also allows you to boost your hot water at a moments notice, for example if you think that you may run short of hot water when a lot of baths or showers are being taken.

                              Apparently they also work with Danfoss, so that should work.

                              Another thing they have is the Room Sensors, which are able to learn occupancy patterns, nobody else does that.

                              I have the system in my house as well, I installed it myself, 'cus I know it doesn't take long and if I get stuck, I just ring them.

                              I really recommend to have a look at these guys, although they're young on the market, it's the only company that truly does zoned heating and although it might not be the best looking systems, at the end of the day, I personally care more about the way it works and how much it will save me on my heating bills, rather that the look.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X