Does Zoning the house save money?

[HenGus]

. There are still 8 million homes in the UK with little or no controls at all (!!)

.

I respectfully suggest that the owners of these homes are unlikely to be able to spend £1K+ on Evohome without Government help.

The problem for manufacturers and retailers of smart zoning systems is that you are competing against claims of up to 31% energy savings for installing just a smart thermostat. In terms of a return on investment (RoI), I agree that the 'starting point' is the key determinant when it comes to money saved. The problem that I have in promoting zoning systems to other family members is that, if the claims are taken at face value, a £199 investment in a Hive Smart Thermostat which 'could save £150 per year in heating bills' has a 1yr 4 month payback, compared to my Evohome system which is likely to have a payback time in excess of 10 years.

The cynic in me doesn't believe in the validity of any of these academic claims in real life. These claims seem to sit alongside those for Superfast Broadband of 'up to 76Mbps'. Yes, someone living within 300metres of the FTTC cabinet will get max speeds; however, speed degrades exponentially with distance. The seller is covered by use of the words 'up to'; however, under current law, the seller of broadband is now required to provide the customer with a speed estimate for his/her line. It could be argued that the installers of smart heating controls should be required to offer written guidance (as per the System builder) to the customer on where a property sits within the 10 to 40% savings zone. I used a Honeywell Evohome Specialist Installer who provided an arm's length quote, and didn't offer to provide any form of savings analysis. This was also the case with two other Honeywell Evohome installers; however, one installer did say that I would probably get a better RoI by installing a new condensing boiler!

Personally, I am not unduly concerned as I went into this purchase with my eyes fully open.

[Mavis]

I used a Honeywell Evohome Specialist Installer who provided an arm's length quote, and didn't offer to provide any form of savings analysis. This was also the case with two other Honeywell Evohome installers; however, one installer did say that I would probably get a better RoI by installing a new condensing boiler!

Personally, I am not unduly concerned as I went into this purchase with my eyes fully open.

I picked my installer from the Find an Installer page from the 'Installer Network Member' but the 2 that came out to quote tried to talk me out of having Evohome - both said that it was more suitable for large houses. One never came back with the quote. The second, once I have told him that I knew that the system was expensive, did come and install and we were pleased with his work (and will have him back) but he did not have much, if any experience with Evohome and in terms of handover said that I would know more about it than him. (BTW the system was set up properly, just not explained how any of the features work.)

[Otto-Mate]

Isn't it obvious that these figures are 'up to'. Anyone walking down the high street is used to seeing a huge 70% OFF with a tiny 'up to' or 'selected lines' beside it. Is the manufacturer going to advertise anything else other than the best case scenario?

I don't see how a company could tell you how much you are going to save in your individual house either. If I buy a car that does a claimed 40mpg and then drive it flat out all the time and it gets 20 what happens?

Personally I can't see a smart stat being any use at all without zoning. Our (admittedly expensive oil fired) heating bill has been reduced by around a £1,000 a year with evohome.

M.

[The EVOHOME Shop]

Our (admittedly expensive oil fired) heating bill has been reduced by around a £1,000 a year with evohome.

Many people with Natural Gas fired heating systems will not see the full benefit of fitting evohome, because they have never known the expense of heating a home with LPG or Oil! I note that the people questioning the saving potential of evohome are not 'off grid' and probably had relatively inexpensive heating bills in the first place.

I am 'off grid' in a home heated with LPG and our costs are approximately 3 times the amount of an equivalent Natural Gas fired home! Our new house (I am currently self-building and have been for the past 5 years) is highly insulated, underfloor heated, Ground Source Heat Pump fired and has a Mechanical Ventilation Heat Recovery system, but will still be evohome controlled because of the comfort levels evohome provides.

People on Oil or LPG will be the big winners with evohome, as the upfront cost vs the savings you will make will mean a very fast payback indeed (the average large Oil Fired home will spend £2000-£4000 per year on oil). Natural Gas fired homes will take a little longer to payback but certainly not 10 years if scheduled and used to its full potential.

[G4RHL]

I respectfully suggest that the owners of these homes are unlikely to be able to spend £1K+ on Evohome without Government help.

The problem for manufacturers and retailers of smart zoning systems is that you are competing against claims of up to 31% energy savings for installing just a smart thermostat. In terms of a return on investment (RoI), I agree that the 'starting point' is the key determinant when it comes to money saved. The problem that I have in promoting zoning systems to other family members is that, if the claims are taken at face value, a £199 investment in a Hive Smart Thermostat which 'could save £150 per year in heating bills' has a 1yr 4 month payback, compared to my Evohome system which is likely to have a payback time in excess of 10 years.

The cynic in me doesn't believe in the validity of any of these academic claims in real life. These claims seem to sit alongside those for Superfast Broadband of 'up to 76Mbps'. Yes, someone living within 300metres of the FTTC cabinet will get max speeds; however, speed degrades exponentially with distance. The seller is covered by use of the words 'up to'; however, under current law, the seller of broadband is now required to provide the customer with a speed estimate for his/her line. It could be argued that the installers of smart heating controls should be required to offer written guidance (as per the System builder) to the customer on where a property sits within the 10 to 40% savings zone. I used a Honeywell Evohome Specialist Installer who provided an arm's length quote, and didn't offer to provide any form of savings analysis. This was also the case with two other Honeywell Evohome installers; however, one installer did say that I would probably get a better RoI by installing a new condensing boiler!

Personally, I am not unduly concerned as I went into this purchase with my eyes fully open.

I concur with your cynicism! Those who knock on my door trying to sell me solar panels look totally confused when I tell them their pay back time they so happily quote does not take account of the degradation in efficiency of current panels and that when pay back does occur I probably then have to replace them. Australia seem to have it right, I gather they give a 20 year guarantee. But then their panels perhaps do not have to work so hard - they have more sun!

My wife, who is far from technically minded or interested in these gadgets has just told me she likes the idea of putting the heat up in her study so easily!

[HenGus]

That's great, and I am pleased for you. The point that I am trying to make - obviously, very badly - is that Honeywell, Nest, Hive, Tado et al have latched on to an academic white paper and are using it to give the impression that smart controls will save people 'up to 40%' on their heating bill. To varying degrees, as indicated above, this is true. However, the DECC website makes the following point , referring to smart heating controls in particular (as of 8 Dec 2014) that:

There are claims that new technologies could deliver even larger savings because many find existing heating controls hard to use and do not use them effectively. Emerging products already enable people to remotely control their heating via their mobile phone or automatically turning off heating in empty rooms.

However, there is currently no robust evidence that either standard or more advanced heating controls actually save energy. A recent academic study concluded that it is not the presence or absence of particular controls that is important, but rather how people choose to interact with the technology that really matters.

So, it would seem, that even the Government is becoming sceptical about the claims that are being made for these types of smart devices. At 65, I enjoy the convenience of Evohome - although, I have just noticed that my wall-mounted controller has just re-booted itself and appears reluctant to re-synch. Any savings are a nice bonus.

[Otto-Mate]

However, there is currently no robust evidence that either standard or more advanced heating controls actually save energy.

That sentence blows my mind to be honest. For example - my parents have a ALL ON or ALL OFF approach to heating their home. How can anyone conclude that fitting a zoned heating system giving them fine grained control over when to heat what room and for how long would not save any energy?

A recent academic study concluded that it is not the presence or absence of particular controls that is important, but rather how people choose to interact with the technology that really matters.

That sounds like 'academics' stating the blindingly obvious. To get back to my car analogy, you can buy a car that's capable of great mpg but if you don't chose to drive it economically (or 'interact with the technology' in the correct way) then it's all for nothing.

M.

[The EVOHOME Shop]

However, the DECC website makes the following point , referring to smart heating controls in particular (as of 8 Dec 2014) that:

There are claims that new technologies could deliver even larger savings because many find existing heating controls hard to use and do not use them effectively. Emerging products already enable people to remotely control their heating via their mobile phone or automatically turning off heating in empty rooms.

However, there is currently no robust evidence that either standard or more advanced heating controls actually save energy. A recent academic study concluded that it is not the presence or absence of particular controls that is important, but rather how people choose to interact with the technology that really matters.

So, it would seem, that even the Government is becoming sceptical about the claims that are being made for these types of smart devices.

Lets face it, what the Government know about the heating industry isn't worth the investment they make or the the ink they waste producing documents about what they think they know about it!

Look at the Green Deal, FIT & RHI - all schemes that unfairly benefit the 'better-off' using tax taken from everyone in society. Had the same investment been put into heating controls (free smart heating controls and upgrades for everyone) it may have helped to stop fuel poverty and benefited the masses (A DECC figure of 8 million homes without room thermostats and 800,000 homes have no controls - https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...e_overview.pdf). Instead we have farmers fields and and roofs of cattle sheds full of PV!

It is not difficult to grasp the concept on how smart zoning can save money (underfloor heating systems have been more energy efficient for years due to room by room control), but as Mark has pointed out giving someone the tools doesn't mean they will use them correctly.

I have hundreds of opinions and feedbacks on the product since we started selling evohome a year ago - all are positive irrespective of if the home-owner has chosen evohome for 'comfort' or to 'save money'.

[SteveP]

The problem will always be that a product such as evohome will remain expensive and so not realise the benefits to many until such time as it becomes a standard installation and then the price can reduce dramatically. One of the many issues with the UK is that we don't embrace technology and do not mandate it in new homes such the cost can be dramatically reduced thereby easily realising a ROI over the current basic heating set up in new homes. We have governments who on one hand want choice and on the other point out how are planets resources are dwindling. However, they never have the courage to mandate such energy saving devices as evohome due to various self interested pressures. I have an energy meter and actually notice an increase in gas usage since putting in evohome (3 years ago) during the heart of winter but a reduction during the spring/autumn periods. My overall is a slight reduction(10%). But for me the main benefit is that I now have a house that is so much more comfortable at any time of year wheareas before evohome I had a single thermostat and scheduling controller (with optimisation) and TRVs on all rads but in winter the heating used to struggle to keep the north facing rooms warm. So not only have I reduced my gas consumption but have vastly improved the comfort of my house.

[HenGus]

Richard - this exchange is not about people being positive or negative about Evohome or any other smart control for that matter. I speak enthusiastically about Evohome to people that I meet, and I am happy to show off its features to anyone who is interested.

When I installed PV Solar 3 years ago, I could check my installer's projected output using a widely available tool (PVGIS). Theoretically, if I could use all the electricity generated, I could save up to 40% on my old electricity bill. However, the regulator insisted that installers use a more realistic output figure of 50%. In truth, this is hard to achieve unless the property is occupied all day.

Why then should the projected savings from smart devices not be subject to the same sort of individual home analysis?

FWiW, I see that a number of Council websites are now limiting their advice on heating controls as follows:

'Fit the right heating controls as well, and you could bump the saving up to 40%. (These savings are based on an uninsulated three-bedroom semi-detached house).'

I will now get back to enjoying the comfort of my Evohome system knowing that I can control heat where and when I want.

[The EVOHOME Shop]

Richard - this exchange is not about people being positive or negative about Evohome or any other smart control for that matter. I speak enthusiastically about Evohome to people that I meet, and I am happy to show off its features to anyone who is interested.

When I installed PV Solar 3 years ago, I could check my installer's projected output using a widely available tool (PVGIS). Theoretically, if I could use all the electricity generated, I could save up to 40% on my old electricity bill. However, the regulator insisted that installers use a more realistic output figure of 50%. In truth, this is hard to achieve unless the property is occupied all day.

Why then should the projected savings from smart devices not be subject to the same sort of individual home analysis?

FWiW, I see that a number of Council websites are now limiting their advice on heating controls as follows:

'Fit the right heating controls as well, and you could bump the saving up to 40%. (These savings are based on an uninsulated three-bedroom semi-detached house).'

I will now get back to enjoying the comfort of my Evohome system knowing that I can control heat where and when I want.

The smart controls revolution has been an interesting thing and has a lot of people now talking about heating controls (would this post happened 12 months ago?). Whatever your view, having an opinion (positive or negative) about smart controls is very good for the industry full stop! People are much more informed and aware of what is going on which can only be a great thing for installers and manufacturers alike.

I love forum posts like this, always great for a good debate! Forums are excellent tools for removing age, race and gender from the equation and one reason why I spend a lot of my personal time helping out and giving views.

[Otto-Mate]

Agreed, all good debate. Thanks all.

M.

[HenGus]

Richard - just to add my thanks to you for your time and extremely balanced and professional input. Honeywell is fortunate to have you as their Evohome evangelist.

[Ubarrow]

We installed Evohome in December at the same time as switching from oil to wood pellet, so it's difficult to compare costs. But as others have said, you do tend to crank the heat up further in the occupied rooms. I would guess that we are saving 20% or so, but it may be more.
At the start of this discussion Richard asked for details of schedules and I wonder if he could enlighten us as to the principles he uses? For example I set a minimum temp of 15c whereas I think he recommended 10c. I was told that it is a mistake to let the thermal mass drop below this, but what do others think?
I'm delighted with Evohome so far. The only issue I've found is due to my boiler thermal store linkage not being quite right and the radiator temp varying, thus throwing out the optimisation process - but clearly this is not an Evohome problem.
The only thing I'd ask Honeywell for is an enhanced menu of quick actions, otherwise it's perfect for me.

And a web based app would be good, to make setting schedules easier.

I did notice that the trade is not keen on the system. I wonder if this is because of the potential for comeback? In my experience it does need a customer who takes a real interest in making it perform. The customer who "just wants their heating to work" and doesn't know where their thermostat is will probably not be suited to this system.

Finally, thanks to Richard who received a little of his due reward by getting our order for all the kit!

[The EVOHOME Shop]

At the start of this discussion Richard asked for details of schedules and I wonder if he could enlighten us as to the principles he uses?

I will put up a separate forum post about this shortly.

I did notice that the trade is not keen on the system. I wonder if this is because of the potential for comeback? In my experience it does need a customer who takes a real interest in making it perform. The customer who "just wants their heating to work" and doesn't know where their thermostat is will probably not be suited to this system.

I will be honest, evohome is not for installers who want something they can just fit, forget and walk away! Good installers will be happy to spend the time educating the end-user on evohome's features and how best to optimise the product. Other installers I have found are set in their ways, hence 'the consumer' has really pushed this product forward and Honeywell I know are thankful of that!

Finally, thanks to Richard who received a little of his due reward by getting our order for all the kit!

I am very grateful indeed for your purchase! It sounds like you are happy with your product and hopefully our delivery/customer service was good enough?

Richard - just to add my thanks to you for your time and extremely balanced and professional input. Honeywell is fortunate to have you as their Evohome evangelist.

It is a pleasure to be here and to help out/give my opinion where I can. Over the last year I have got to know a lot of the Honeywell UK team really well. I have come to find it is an organisation made up of people who genuinely care about the new 'connected' products they produce and the people that use them. I could have chosen any 'smart heating' controls, but Honeywell was my first choice and I am very grateful to have been given the opportunities I have had with them.