Does Zoning the house save money?

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  • HenGus
    Automated Home Legend
    • May 2014
    • 1001

    Does Zoning the house save money?

    i have always been sceptical of claims that zoning systems can save 'up to 40%' of gas used - unless the starting point is pretty basic; ie, no thermostat or TRVs. My jury has just returned its verdict. In the period 31 Oct to 21Dec 13, we consumed 150 cu metres of gas (GCH/HW/hob). The corresponding period last year gives a consumption of 122.5 cu metres: a saving of 19%. Am I surprised/disappointed - no.

    In truth, we have been 'warmer' this winter than last as the heat has followed us around the house thanks to the controller and its settings. Rather than light our woodstove during the day, we just keep the temperature up in the room that we are in. It follows that our stock of wood is up adding to the savings but as, I say, the real advantage for 2 retired people living in a 5 bed house is that we are getting best use out of the energy that we pay for.

    A slight concern that I have is the long-term reliability of the kit. With two BDRs replaced recently under warranty, a single BDR replacement in a year would be a big hit on the energy cost saved.

    I would be interested to hear how others are faring with this technology? I should add for completeness that we have a 14 year old system boiler and unvented tank. Twenty one HR92s replaced 20 manual TRVs.
  • The EVOHOME Shop
    Site Sponsor
    • Dec 2014
    • 483

    #2
    Originally posted by HenGus View Post
    i have always been sceptical of claims that zoning systems can save 'up to 40%' of gas used - unless the starting point is pretty basic; ie, no thermostat or TRVs. My jury has just returned its verdict. In the period 31 Oct to 21Dec 13, we consumed 150 cu metres of gas (GCH/HW/hob). The corresponding period last year gives a consumption of 122.5 cu metres: a saving of 19%. Am I surprised/disappointed - no.

    In truth, we have been 'warmer' this winter than last as the heat has followed us around the house thanks to the controller and its settings. Rather than light our woodstove during the day, we just keep the temperature up in the room that we are in. It follows that our stock of wood is up adding to the savings but as, I say, the real advantage for 2 retired people living in a 5 bed house is that we are getting best use out of the energy that we pay for.

    A slight concern that I have is the long-term reliability of the kit. With two BDRs replaced recently under warranty, a single BDR replacement in a year would be a big hit on the energy cost saved.

    I would be interested to hear how others are faring with this technology? I should add for completeness that we have a 14 year old system boiler and unvented tank. Twenty one HR92s replaced 20 manual TRVs.
    'Does smart zoning save money?' is like saying 'Can my VW Golf Bluemotion achieve the 80mpg it says in the handbook?' The answer is YES.

    However, with a 'heavy right foot' or in the case of evohome 'without the correct set-up information from an extremely clued up installer' then the answer will be NO.

    Correctly installed and correctly scheduled I 100% believe in the product and its potential to save money. Yes we sell evohome systems (lots of them), but I am intelligent enough to know maybe not 40% in some cases. The system certainly has the ability to do so due to easy user access and simple controllability, but some people will have evohome fitted and have the whole system turned up to 21 degrees C and leave it at 18 degrees C at night!

    The claims that you could save 40% on heating bills did not come from Honeywell and as you probably know came from TACMA research carried by the University of Salford in 2013, details can be found here - http://www.beama.org.uk/download.cfm...BBBC9E9E5A9508

    The 40% saving was based on the difference between no heating controls and a 'basic' Part L Building Regulations system (programmer, one room thermostat and TRV's on all radiators except the room with the room thermostat). The point I am trying to make is that the system they based the tests on was a basic Part L controlled system - it was nowhere near as advanced as evohome.

    When smart zoning, each evohome controlled room is time and temperature controlled - not just one zone like a Part L System but all of them.

    So the main question I always ask my customers is 'what is your evohome time and temperature schedule set like?' - Are you using the schedule to it's full potential now your home is smart zoned? For most people the case will be NO, as they lack the ability to understand what evohome is fully capable of.

    Energy Savings Trust figures suggest that by lowering your thermostat 1 degree would save 5% (or £75 a year) on your annual heating bills alone. How many people walking into a temperature controlled room would actually be able to tell what the temperature in a room was? I bet most wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a room set at 18 or 21 degress C if the room felt 'comfortable'.

    I have been to many houses where evohome has been fitted and not one of them had been optimised by the home owner to evohome's maximum ability. For instance, how many people keep 'unoccupied' rooms set to 10 degrees and the door closed shut? How many people have ground floor evohome controlled rooms with the doors left open to the hallway/stairs and then the bedrooms doors open above with a poorly insulated loft? End of the day, warm air will rise and if you don't keep it in the rooms you are temperature controlling by keeping the door shut, it will end up out of your roof. Close doors and turn down when you don't occupy... This is the smart zoning way!

    There are many areas where a bit of thought and a change of mind set will save you money, especially when using the evohome system.

    As for your case with replacement components, I still don't believe the BDR91's were at fault but Honeywell will get put in the position where they have no choice but to sort something out. I am not saying things will remain fault free forever, but from my experience Honeywell is certainly one of the most reliable brands I have fitted over the years, hence we (and many other heating businesses) base their business around their products.

    Maybe put your evohome schedule up and explain your reasons for setting it that way. I may be able to help improve it for you based on my experience?
    Last edited by The EVOHOME Shop; 17 January 2015, 10:32 PM. Reason: Bad Spelling

    Comment

    • HenGus
      Automated Home Legend
      • May 2014
      • 1001

      #3
      Richard - I am not trying to undermine what is an excellent system but when people are considering investing over £1K in smart heating controls, they would, I suggest, like to hear from those of us who have it installed. I must though take issue with one point in your considered response: the claim of up to 40% savings is on page 11 of The Evohome brochure.

      'Upgrading your basic timer and thermostat controls to evohome smart zoning could deliver as much as 40% savings on heating your home.'

      The fact that the figures came from academia is to a degree irrelevant as Honeywell has chosen to use them to promote the Evohome product - along with a pink piggy bank with a bold 40% icon.

      Would I invest in this system today knowing what I now know: my unequivocal answer is 'Yes'. In my view, however, the marketeers at Honeywell need to do more to promote the convenience and comfort aspects of Evohome. This means as much to us as the potential for savings.

      We do everything that you suggest to get the most out of the system. That said, the learning process has been one of osmosis rather than education. This forum has been of considerable help: thanks to enthusiastic and informed people such as yourself.

      Comment

      • The EVOHOME Shop
        Site Sponsor
        • Dec 2014
        • 483

        #4
        Originally posted by HenGus View Post
        Richard - I am not trying to undermine what is an excellent system but when people are considering investing over £1K in smart heating controls, they would, I suggest, like to hear from those of us who have it installed. I must though take issue with one point in your considered response: the claim of up to 40% savings is on page 11 of The Evohome brochure.
        I certainly wasn't suggesting you were trying to undermine the system, I simply like a good factual debate where all the cards are laid on the table. Factually you were missing several points from your post, so to give people the ammunition to make up their own minds I have posted a response. The problem with forums is that people can read posts the wrong way, especially when they are missing smilies after each word!

        So I am sorry if my views come across strong - I assure you it is just passion for the product and correctness!

        Comment

        • JohnnyP
          Automated Home Jr Member
          • Nov 2008
          • 38

          #5
          In my case, the question is impossible to answer, since the temperature profiles of the house 'before' and 'after' installation are completely different. All I can say is that subjectively, the house is now comfortable (it wasn't before installation), I am confident that I am using energy efficiently, and my oil usage is about the same as before. So that's positive. On the negative side, the wireless comms upon which the system depends are not 100% reliable and produce random failures (changing room setpoints and creating unwanted heat demands at the boiler). If one is not able to correct these failures, the system fails. I would not recommend the system to my parents, for example. I still worry about the system when I go away on holiday.

          Comment

          • HenGus
            Automated Home Legend
            • May 2014
            • 1001

            #6
            Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
            In my case, the question is impossible to answer, since the temperature profiles of the house 'before' and 'after' installation are completely different. All I can say is that subjectively, the house is now comfortable (it wasn't before installation), I am confident that I am using energy efficiently, and my oil usage is about the same as before. So that's positive. On the negative side, the wireless comms upon which the system depends are not 100% reliable and produce random failures (changing room setpoints and creating unwanted heat demands at the boiler). If one is not able to correct these failures, the system fails. I would not recommend the system to my parents, for example. I still worry about the system when I go away on holiday.
            You are right, which is why I said in my original post that we are warmer overall this winter as we have set up the 'heat' to follow our usage pattern. It is therefore a bit like comparing apples with pears. I agree that the portal is not as reliable as it should be but we haven't had any issues with controller settings being changed without user input.

            Comment

            • Mavis
              Automated Home Ninja
              • Oct 2014
              • 322

              #7
              I agree, Evohome is whole new lifestyle, it is not a case of just fitting it in place of an existing system and expecting mega savings. I have had to retrain my family to keep all the doors shut, for instance or putting a jumper on if you are cold - my particular bugbear as my husband wanders round in a teeshirt and then says he is cold. Another factor (for me) is that it is all too easy to crank the heating up in a particular room just because I can. I still don't use the system to its full potential and need to get into the habit of turning the heating down if there is no one in the house.

              I am coming to the conclusion that anything vaguely technical needs rebooting once in a while - for instance my sky box has to be unplugged every few months as it stops responding. My Evohome, since I rebooted the controller last week appears to be more responsive - window open sensors working better, optimisation showing on the controller.

              Comment

              • G4RHL
                Automated Home Legend
                • Jan 2015
                • 1580

                #8
                I did not install Evohome in order to save on my bills. If that happens, great. I wanted a more efficient system, with better and easier control and a better heat balance around the house. I now have it. I suspect I may save in time as I become more familiar with the system and monitor how we use it and the rooms we use plus ensure doors are closed! When somebody comes along with a sales pitch about replacements saving money sadly I am cynical. I have a 17 year old boiler, probably now on borrowed time, but my Heating Service people keep telling me to keep using it if it works. Yes they are happy to replace it with a condensing boiler, yes that might save money, but their experience (and that of others I have talked to) with condensers is that by the time you have got your money back it virtually needs replacing again. Not so with more simple things like loft and cavity wall insulation.

                What Evohome has made me look at is our conservatory. Built before we had the current heat reflective glass etc. and not really useable from October to April possibly May. The radiator in there is set to 5c and during the night I hear the boiler fire up. Result has caused us to look seriously at the conservatory as it is getting past its sell by date. Replacing it with current glass panels and replacing the roof will undoubtedly save in heating costs but never sufficient to repay the cost. But that is not the point, the point for us is to have a more usuable room, enjoy the whole house the whole year and that we will achieve.

                I have not come across any other system that does what Evohome does. The result for some will be cost savings but it makes the enjoyment of one's home that much more with control at your finger tips when you want it and where you want it. No longer getting up to adjust a thermostat somewhere else in the house to ensure the living room is warm.

                The danger is making things too complicated. On this forum we are probably all gadget/technical geeks who like playing with these toys. We therefore know how to operate it. Can we do it when in our 80s or 90s? There are many elderly people who would struggle operating a system or perhaps learning how to do so. I am well past retirement age and hopefully by the time old age really does hit I will be so familiar with the system it will be second nature to me! But there are some who may struggle. Some who will fear big bills and start reducing the heat. The system has to be one where the likes of us can play and ensure maximum efficiency but also where the not so technical, the elderly and those who may sadly be beginning to become confused, can use without anxiety. I think Evohome achieves that. Yes it can be technical and sound complicated but if set up and left alone it can also look after itself.

                My wife wondered about the necessity of Evohome but now appreciates the better balance around the house and the control she has. She is far from technical, just wants things to switch on and off. However, there was no difficulty in her deciding a nice new conservatory would be good!

                Yes, it is about saving money if you can but surely more about ensuring greater comfort where you want it?

                Comment

                • Otto-Mate
                  Founder
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 882

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Mavis View Post
                  I am coming to the conclusion that anything vaguely technical needs rebooting once in a while - for instance my sky box has to be unplugged every few months as it stops responding.
                  Yes often true. After our router froze a few years back meaning we couldn't check on the house CCTV while we were away on hols, I added a low-tech mechanical timer switch to the routers power supply so it restarts automatically each night.

                  M.
                  Editor AutomatedHome.co.uk


                  www.facebook.com/AutomatedHomeUK
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                  Comment

                  • Mavis
                    Automated Home Ninja
                    • Oct 2014
                    • 322

                    #10
                    On the flipside though, the system lends itself to concerned children monitoring their parents heating from afar. (In conjunction perhaps with disabling the TRVs. )

                    Comment

                    • jatrichardson
                      • Jan 2015
                      • 1

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Otto-Mate View Post
                      Yes often true. After our router froze a few years back meaning we couldn't check on the house CCTV while we were away on hols, I added a low-tech mechanical timer switch to the routers power supply so it restarts automatically each night.

                      M.
                      What a simple, GREAT idea!

                      Comment

                      • G4RHL
                        Automated Home Legend
                        • Jan 2015
                        • 1580

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Mavis View Post
                        On the flipside though, the system lends itself to concerned children monitoring their parents heating from afar. (In conjunction perhaps with disabling the TRVs. )
                        That was at the back of my mind as I wrote in saying it can be set up and left. I can a "confused elderly" having it all set up and not having to worry and as you say offspring can keep an eye in things. Even simple controls can be confusing for the elderly. I am retired now but have been in many an elderly person's house to see them professionally and found them cold or rather conditions cool, "I can't work out the central heating thingy" was the oft given remark. With someone to monitor them Evohome would be great. Even those in social housing with carers can benefit, for the carer can monitor things from afar.

                        Comment

                        • HenGus
                          Automated Home Legend
                          • May 2014
                          • 1001

                          #13
                          Originally posted by G4RHL View Post

                          Yes, it is about saving money if you can but surely more about ensuring greater comfort where you want it?
                          I agree 100%. I am also retired and chasing savings by scrabbling under study tables and behind curtains is good in theory but not so good for old knees! Sadly, all the Smart controls manufacturers are highlighting the potential savings. This is on the Tado site: Save up to 31% on heating costs.

                          In truth, I could get 100% usage savings but I am sure that is not what Honeywell et al has in mind with Evohome.

                          Comment

                          • The EVOHOME Shop
                            Site Sponsor
                            • Dec 2014
                            • 483

                            #14
                            Originally posted by G4RHL View Post
                            Yes, it is about saving money if you can but surely more about ensuring greater comfort where you want it?
                            If manufacturers sold smart zoning products with 'comfort' in mind they would only sell to the very few! At the end of the day to invest £1000+ on a heating system upgrade of any kind the majority of people would want a return on their investment (or at least that is my experience from being in the heating industry in Mid Wales since 2002).

                            I was an early adopter of 'smart zoning' in our area (maybe the UK) and had the MK1 evohome system with HR80's three years ago. It was very obvious (very quickly) the comfort benefits to be had from smart zoning (something I have promoted on Twitter for sometime - look at #evohome or #increasecomfort)!

                            So why wasn't the 1st generation of evohome successful? If comfort is the only criteria for a successful heating system, why have so many people now invested into the second generation of the product? The fact is the last generation system was expensive, unattractive, hard to use and no where near as instantly 'accessible' as the new product - but the evohome product has given Honeywell the edge.

                            High fuel prices have driven the majority of people to look for new ways to conserve what they use, especially those in larger homes. I also think the research done independently by TACMA in 2013 has been instrumental in showing many heating engineers the effects heating controls can have on heating systems and to look at the importance of energy efficiency and heating controls - once again passing this knowledge onto their customers.

                            From my experience smart heating controls have been a 'quiet' revolution (pub talk and recommendations from friends and family) but this seems to have spread like wild fire, especially thanks to Google and Hive's promotion on TV and radio. Cost savings will always be the driving force behind smart zoning but 'comfort' will always be the reason why people will recommend the product - irrespective of the savings they make.

                            Comment

                            • Rameses
                              Industry Expert
                              • Nov 2014
                              • 446

                              #15
                              We have reports from TACMA and ESRU both proving zoning and the importance of good controls. This is just the UK, we have other reports from France, Beligum and NL. Germany is being done as I type this and to be honest they are all coming out the same. (circa 35-40%) Depending on your starting point.

                              We promote in the UK the 40% based on those who have split level 3 bed home and basic controls (ie central thermostat, no timer etc) A recent report from TACMA said energy saving could potentially be higher (the UK is notoriously 'leaky'). Again depends on your starting point. Buckingham palace for instance would have have a payback of a few days. The German market has higher insulation and ventilation regulations, so harder to make a saving. We are seeing people adapt once they 'learn' that they can get control, and more importantly they are growing their systems.

                              We see an average of 6.5 room/zones per evohome. (just an interesting fact)

                              There are some white papers, so will try to dig out.

                              But it comes down to getting more of a balance - comfort, control and energy saving. We see people who appreciate having a more 'balanced' home (no hot of cold spots) - and we see those who are energy champions and plan their rooms meticulously. evohome and all controls in general provide the 'opportunity' to save money. There are still 8 million homes in the UK with little or no controls at all (!!)

                              When it comes to energy saving the benefit is derived from 3 key areas

                              - optimisation & learning (heating shutting off according the home, and not just a static schedule)
                              - not heating space you're not in (smart zoning)
                              - remote control (left heating on when going away)

                              All of these contribute to the opportunity to save energy. The implementation and how they are used will determine the scale of that saving.
                              Last edited by Rameses; 20 January 2015, 10:26 AM.
                              getconnected.honeywell.com | I work for Honeywell. Any posts I make are purely to help if I can. Any personal views expressed are my own

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