Balancing EvoHome zone with multiple HR92s

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  • emmeesse68
    Automated Home Guru
    • Dec 2014
    • 103

    #31
    AAAAnyway.... yesterday night I deleted and rebuilt my bedroom zone, resetting both valves and reconfiguring stroke and offset values.

    Now the zone is "learning", I could hear valves adjusting pretty often in the night (I forgot how noisy they get in the first learning phase ).

    I checked and found different percentage of valve opening, but not as much as before - and I guess a reliable reading should wait the learning phase to be over... get back to this in a few days. Meanwhile I'll be keeping an ear to the valves to check if they adjust at the same time or nearly. Last night they seemed to be pretty independent from one another but I was too tired to take notes...

    Comment

    • Rameses
      Industry Expert
      • Nov 2014
      • 446

      #32
      Originally posted by erik View Post
      That's a matter of speech probably. You bind the sensor to a zone before you bind the actuators to a zone. It's 2 seperate steps.
      When binding multiple Hr92, the first one bound is automatically the sensor for the room. If not in a multi room config.

      You can go back into the zone and select which device is the 'sensor' post install - if you wish. In the case above if did it 'wrong' the first time - no problem just select the one you want as main sensor. The rest will be actuators.
      getconnected.honeywell.com | I work for Honeywell. Any posts I make are purely to help if I can. Any personal views expressed are my own

      Comment

      • Rameses
        Industry Expert
        • Nov 2014
        • 446

        #33
        Originally posted by jonstatt View Post
        Sorry, as I haven't got it in-front of me at the moment I cannot see the exact wording, but what I was getting at is you don't bind the HR92 twice (once as sensor, once as actuator). It is done in one go such that when you select "Bind" on the HR92, it communicates itself as both sensor and actuator in one pass. If you then add a second HR92, the first HR92 still provides the sensor part. I had to reverse a room's priority sensor, because one of them was near a loudspeaker which nicely created a pocket of warm air around the HR92 resulting in it reading totally wrong temperatures.
        The reference to 'internal sensor' is the sensor inside the evohome controller (eg you could use this in the living room, as the main sensor, where the 2 radiators are covered, as I have)
        getconnected.honeywell.com | I work for Honeywell. Any posts I make are purely to help if I can. Any personal views expressed are my own

        Comment

        • Rameses
          Industry Expert
          • Nov 2014
          • 446

          #34
          Originally posted by emmeesse68 View Post
          AAAAnyway.... yesterday night I deleted and rebuilt my bedroom zone, resetting both valves and reconfiguring stroke and offset values.

          Now the zone is "learning", I could hear valves adjusting pretty often in the night (I forgot how noisy they get in the first learning phase ).

          I checked and found different percentage of valve opening, but not as much as before - and I guess a reliable reading should wait the learning phase to be over... get back to this in a few days. Meanwhile I'll be keeping an ear to the valves to check if they adjust at the same time or nearly. Last night they seemed to be pretty independent from one another but I was too tired to take notes...
          Hi - why are you playing with stroke and offset values? What information are you using to make these changes?
          getconnected.honeywell.com | I work for Honeywell. Any posts I make are purely to help if I can. Any personal views expressed are my own

          Comment

          • emmeesse68
            Automated Home Guru
            • Dec 2014
            • 103

            #35
            Originally posted by Rameses View Post
            Hi - why are you playing with stroke and offset values? What information are you using to make these changes?
            I switched to full stroke because one of my radiators didn't heat at all, I saw low temperature in my bedroom with the smartphone app, went home and found one hot radiator (the one that's not the sensor) and a cold one (the one with the sensor) with the valve showing 98% - 100% . When it happened, I removed the valve motor from the cold radiator and found the black dial wasn't actually fully open. after fully opening it by hand (it was some half turn...) the radiator heated up immediately. Thus, I tried full stroke and now my radiator heats up correctly.
            The other radiator doesn't need full stroke to heat up so I left it to default since now, I could set it to full and check if the two valves read matching positions then.

            I played with offset because my sensor valve reads temperature that's too much influenced by the radiator itself (lower than the actual when the radiator is off, higler when on). I have an electronic thermometer that I placed in a better position in my room so I adjusted my HR92 sensor offset to make it read something closer to the actual measured room temp with the heating on and temperature settled.

            As I said earlier, my plan is to fit my bedroom with a wireless thermostat to use as a sensor, and place it in a better position (say, a wall not too close to radiators or windows). I already ordered it but:

            1) I didn't receive it yet and meanwhile I would like to heat up my bedroom ;
            2) I want to understand how to adjust a zone with two different radiators: I have 4 more rooms to set up, two zoning kits are on their way to my house and I wouldn't want to place another thermostat in each of them if I can use valve sensors. It wolud cost money, make things more complicated and require more batteries

            Having some insight on how a zone with multiple actuators work could help me optimizing it to save some more energy (and money) (and hassle) and to have a comfortable home

            I took the web learning, read all the manuals and didn't find much about this subject...

            Comment

            • erik
              Automated Home Guru
              • Feb 2015
              • 244

              #36
              I would always first try to let the HR92 're-learn' the valve. Take it off the radiator valve, turn the black wheel all the way to the left, re-place the HR92. Wait for CYCL to complete.

              Comment

              • jonstatt
                Automated Home Guru
                • Feb 2015
                • 111

                #37
                Originally posted by emmeesse68 View Post

                I took the web learning, read all the manuals and didn't find much about this subject...
                So what we do know for sure, is that the first HR92 bonded to a zone is the active sensor. The sensor on the second HR92 for the same room therefore does nothing whatsoever. So in theory, both radiators should "open" at exactly the same moment, and "close" at the same moment. What they do inbetween (partially open) may depend on if there really is a learning process or not when you first place the HR92. As Erik mentioned we see "CYCL" appear, but it wasn't obvious to me if there really was some kind of "sensing" of when the pin was fully open or closed. I would like to think it could do that (for example measuring the RPM of the motor indicating freespin or closed tight, which can also be done with slightly less accuracy by measuring voltage drop etc). The reason I am doubtful is there wouldn't be a need for stroke length etc at all if it could auto-sense.

                I have pondered on the idea that with a room where the HR92s are both in "good" measuring locations in a room, whether EVOHOME should have a feature to average the two temperatures. I wonder what would happen if you put two HR92s as two zones even though they are the same room. For example consider a very large living room where one radiator is a different size to the other (a double finned, vs a single for example), such that one side of the room heats up faster than the other.

                Comment

                • emmeesse68
                  Automated Home Guru
                  • Dec 2014
                  • 103

                  #38
                  Originally posted by erik View Post
                  I would always first try to let the HR92 're-learn' the valve. Take it off the radiator valve, turn the black wheel all the way to the left, re-place the HR92. Wait for CYCL to complete.
                  Did that several times in the beginning, with no result (my "ladder" radiator was cold even when the valve was showinf a 90% open) and resorted to setting the full stroke. That worked right off.

                  I was thinking of re-aligning valves trying to set the other one to full stroke as well. Maybe tonight I'll check it out... If it works, all we need is better documentation.

                  Comment

                  • emmeesse68
                    Automated Home Guru
                    • Dec 2014
                    • 103

                    #39
                    Originally posted by jonstatt View Post
                    So what we do know for sure, is that the first HR92 bonded to a zone is the active sensor. The sensor on the second HR92 for the same room therefore does nothing whatsoever. So in theory, both radiators should "open" at exactly the same moment, and "close" at the same moment. What they do inbetween (partially open) may depend on if there really is a learning process or not when you first place the HR92.
                    My valves sometimes adjust with a slight delay between one another. Sometimes one does and the other does not adjust. The problem is that they don't get similar opening values. And, AFAIK, there's no specification whatsoever that says a zone must include identical TRVs/radiators. I could have two different make/model that would NEED different settings (stroke included), so I think there should be some balance adjustment option somewhere in the installer menu at least.

                    Originally posted by jonstatt View Post
                    As Erik mentioned we see "CYCL" appear, but it wasn't obvious to me if there really was some kind of "sensing" of when the pin was fully open or closed. I would like to think it could do that (for example measuring the RPM of the motor indicating freespin or closed tight, which can also be done with slightly less accuracy by measuring voltage drop etc). The reason I am doubtful is there wouldn't be a need for stroke length etc at all if it could auto-sense.
                    At the very beginning I could hear the motor slowing down when valve was all way close. Now I think it didn't do that when I removed/replaced valve to cause it do its CYCL. Can't figure out if it means the HR92 "learned" my TRV or it's the TRV itself that "shook off the rust".

                    Originally posted by jonstatt View Post
                    I have pondered on the idea that with a room where the HR92s are both in "good" measuring locations in a room, whether EVOHOME should have a feature to average the two temperatures. I wonder what would happen if you put two HR92s as two zones even though they are the same room. For example consider a very large living room where one radiator is a different size to the other (a double finned, vs a single for example), such that one side of the room heats up faster than the other.
                    I think you could set up such a room as a multi-room zone, having both valves act independently yet use the same schedule... That setup couldn't be useful to my bedroom, because my valves are both in "bad" measuring locations!

                    Comment

                    • emmeesse68
                      Automated Home Guru
                      • Dec 2014
                      • 103

                      #40
                      Update time!

                      My wireless thermostats arrived yesterday, so I instantly added one to my bedroom, without deleting/rebuilding entire zone. Nothing changed... as soon as my bedroom setpoint lowered by one degree, big rad went ice cold (valve like 24% open), while ladder rad stayed warm (valve like 48% open). Ladder rad valve still on full stroke, big rad valve on normal.

                      Today I tried restoring default parameters to both valves (normal stroke, zero offset) and the behaviour that made me try putting the ladder rad on full stroke came up again: big rad is warm (valve 50% open), ladder rad cold (valve 62% open). I'll check if the ladder rad ever gets open without the full stroke.

                      IMHO this rules out sensor position being part of this issue. This makes sense anyway.

                      I'd say the problem could be my (quite old) TRVs, they appear to behave differently but HR82s are making troubleshooting harder, since now they're reading differrent opening % even when being configured with the very same parameters to one another. Dunno if wiping/rebuilding entire zone could be any help, maybe I'll try it out if I can't think of anything else. Didn't try with both rads on full stroke yet, I may check this first.

                      Now a "technical" question: my ladder rad stayed warm, with the HR92 on full stroke, with a reading of 48%. Now it's on standard stroke, reading 62% and the rad is cold... How's the reading % related to the actual valve position in normal and full stroke length?

                      One more "technical" question: why two HR92s with the same parameters should read different opening %? How EvoHome could decide to open one valve more than the other?
                      Last edited by emmeesse68; 7 March 2015, 10:11 PM.

                      Comment

                      • jonstatt
                        Automated Home Guru
                        • Feb 2015
                        • 111

                        #41
                        Originally posted by emmeesse68 View Post
                        One more "technical" question: why two HR92s with the same parameters should read different opening %? How EvoHome could decide to open one valve more than the other?
                        This comes back to what I said before. "IF" there is some kind of auto-sensing going on during the "CYCL" phase when you first add the HR92, then that would explain the different percentages. It almost certainly is nothing to do with the EVOHOME controller at all.....much more likely the individual HR92 making that decision. However, I would try an absolutely clean zone

                        1) Delete the zone
                        2) Make sure the HR92s are back to defaults
                        3) Remove both HR92s and swap them over between the two radiators. This will force a new CYCL phase and also rule out an oddly behaving HR92 (if the problem moves with it)
                        4) Re-add the zone

                        Comment

                        • emmeesse68
                          Automated Home Guru
                          • Dec 2014
                          • 103

                          #42
                          Originally posted by jonstatt View Post
                          ... However, I would try an absolutely clean zone
                          Don't get me wrong, I know that could solve but being in IT management since 90's I'm used to the "reboot/reinstall" approach. They can be helpful in short, but issues use to come back sooner or later, until you actually understand why they appear and solve them.

                          Now I noticed an evolution in my valves behaviour. I can't explain that since I don't know how they work and how the learning phase is carried out (what part depends on the controller and what is carried out by the HR92 themselves, or even the remote thermostat used as a sensor), so basically I don't know if the system is not settled yet. Moving things around could prevent completion of such a learning phase - if it ever ends...

                          Now I'm trying something that I didn't check before: letting the zone alone for a few days, taking some notes (e.g. measured temperature, valve position, rad behaviour). Too bad I can't just download a log from the system...

                          Meanwhile, I'll throw in a few more "technical" questions:

                          - in a zone with multiple HR92s (single zone), there's one official temperature sensor only (one valve or a separate wireless thermostat). Is the temperature sensor of "actuator-only" HR92s used to "learn" or anything else? Is it reported to the central controller (and, via web gateway, to the TCC infrastructure) anyhow?

                          - in such a zone fitted with multiple HR92s, how does the open window detection work? Is it based on the zone sensor (one of the valves or the added thermostat) or is it carried out by each valve independently, or by any of the valves? Is the thermostat to be configured anyhow (DTS92 seem to have a related option)?

                          Comment

                          • jonstatt
                            Automated Home Guru
                            • Feb 2015
                            • 111

                            #43
                            Originally posted by emmeesse68 View Post
                            Don't get me wrong, I know that could solve but being in IT management since 90's I'm used to the "reboot/reinstall" approach. They can be helpful in short, but issues use to come back sooner or later, until you actually understand why they appear and solve them.

                            Now I noticed an evolution in my valves behaviour. I can't explain that since I don't know how they work and how the learning phase is carried out (what part depends on the controller and what is carried out by the HR92 themselves, or even the remote thermostat used as a sensor), so basically I don't know if the system is not settled yet. Moving things around could prevent completion of such a learning phase - if it ever ends...

                            Now I'm trying something that I didn't check before: letting the zone alone for a few days, taking some notes (e.g. measured temperature, valve position, rad behaviour). Too bad I can't just download a log from the system...

                            Meanwhile, I'll throw in a few more "technical" questions:

                            - in a zone with multiple HR92s (single zone), there's one official temperature sensor only (one valve or a separate wireless thermostat). Is the temperature sensor of "actuator-only" HR92s used to "learn" or anything else? Is it reported to the central controller (and, via web gateway, to the TCC infrastructure) anyhow?

                            - in such a zone fitted with multiple HR92s, how does the open window detection work? Is it based on the zone sensor (one of the valves or the added thermostat) or is it carried out by each valve independently, or by any of the valves? Is the thermostat to be configured anyhow (DTS92 seem to have a related option)?

                            I am in IT support management and believe me I would slap any engineers that give the "reboot", "restart" comment without qualification. I remember getting very very annoyed on a call centre once when I told them that smoke had poured out of the back of a device, to which they said, have you tried doing a factory reset on it?! That's why I built-in a little extra with what I suggested to you which was to swap the two HR92s over to see if the problem moves with the HR92, or it behaves exactly the same

                            Comment

                            • emmeesse68
                              Automated Home Guru
                              • Dec 2014
                              • 103

                              #44
                              Originally posted by jonstatt View Post
                              That's why I built-in a little extra with what I suggested to you which was to swap the two HR92s over to see if the problem moves with the HR92, or it behaves exactly the same
                              I appreciate your suggestion, it's a valuable advice and I think Ill actually try it at some point. Only, I don't want to miss out the possibility that it could just be a matter of time to let everything "learn" my room...

                              Comment

                              • Rameses
                                Industry Expert
                                • Nov 2014
                                • 446

                                #45
                                Originally posted by emmeesse68 View Post
                                Don't get me wrong, I know that could solve but being in IT management since 90's I'm used to the "reboot/reinstall" approach. They can be helpful in short, but issues use to come back sooner or later, until you actually understand why they appear and solve them.

                                Now I noticed an evolution in my valves behaviour. I can't explain that since I don't know how they work and how the learning phase is carried out (what part depends on the controller and what is carried out by the HR92 themselves, or even the remote thermostat used as a sensor), so basically I don't know if the system is not settled yet. Moving things around could prevent completion of such a learning phase - if it ever ends...

                                Now I'm trying something that I didn't check before: letting the zone alone for a few days, taking some notes (e.g. measured temperature, valve position, rad behaviour). Too bad I can't just download a log from the system...

                                Meanwhile, I'll throw in a few more "technical" questions:

                                - in a zone with multiple HR92s (single zone), there's one official temperature sensor only (one valve or a separate wireless thermostat). Is the temperature sensor of "actuator-only" HR92s used to "learn" or anything else? Is it reported to the central controller (and, via web gateway, to the TCC infrastructure) anyhow?

                                - in such a zone fitted with multiple HR92s, how does the open window detection work? Is it based on the zone sensor (one of the valves or the added thermostat) or is it carried out by each valve independently, or by any of the valves? Is the thermostat to be configured anyhow (DTS92 seem to have a related option)?

                                - The other 'sensor' is 'muted' and not considered in the learning (in a single room config), but the unit will be still 'aware' of its surroundings. Eg if you had (like I do) a Hr92 that was under a radiator cover, and then moved the cover, and nominated it as the primary, dont expect it to behave immediately as per the other unit - it will have climatise, as it was aware of a differ behavior area before.
                                - It works the same as it's using the nominated 'sensor' to determine the draft/window/open door etc
                                getconnected.honeywell.com | I work for Honeywell. Any posts I make are purely to help if I can. Any personal views expressed are my own

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