Behind glass ?

**toscal** · 30 March 2010, 08:54 PM

PIR sensors won't really see through glass that well. And you will get some reflection and possibly some refraction.

**Gumby** · 30 March 2010, 09:11 PM

I don't think it's a great plan, to be honest. Holes will restrict PIR sensor's field of view (and IR emitters/receivers for that matter). Glass will stop PIRs and IRs and reduce the sensitivity of the Light Level sensor. Also your temp and humidity will be monitoring the temp and humidity of your cupboard, not your room.

2 modules in the ceiling (PLH + ITR). You soon find you don't notice them

**chris_j_hunter** · 31 March 2010, 01:42 PM

thanks ... and had overlooked refraction !

Unfortunately, our ceilings are a either completely uninterrupted & up-lit, or beamed with a close spacing & not-overgenerous head-clearance !

Quite like the style of the Idratek modules, and if it was just them we'd probably quite quickly find a way to arrange them ...

hmm, if they can't be hidden or faded into the background, the usual approach is to do the opposite & emphasise them, so maybe we could do that - add extra features to go with them, or ...

time for another pot of tea ...

**toscal** · 31 March 2010, 07:49 PM

I know here in Spain you can get temp and light sensors that will fit into the faceplate of the wall switches. page 161 (PDF page 3) and page 179 (PDF page 21) will give you an idea of what I mean. Catalogue available here http://catalogo.simon.es/simon/2008/...mon2008_14.pdf

**chris_j_hunter** · 31 March 2010, 08:50 PM

thanks - lots of good ideas there !

wonder if anyone does backing plates (perhaps glass) for standard everyday switches, of whatever make, that could add ring-illumination in a stylish way ?

**Gumby** · 31 March 2010, 09:17 PM

Could you recess them in a central beam and then either paint over the faceplates or create a thin veneer?

The sensory modules are quite shallow apart from the connector.

**chris_j_hunter** · 31 March 2010, 09:44 PM

recessing might inhibit through-flow - cooling & temp' & humidity sensors - also trying to avoid modifying the modules in any way (skill & time & effort, possibility of later replacements & substitutions) ...

there's probably a simple answer to this, I'll try some more doodling !

**Karam** · 1 April 2010, 12:28 AM

For the purist ... Temperature sensing is best done away from the wall. The IDRATEK modules were in a sense deliberately designed to allow at least reasonable airflow past a temperature sensor - even though its still close to the air/wall layer. If you recess the sensor even further into the wall then there is a likelihood that it skews the measurements even further. Light sensors certainly could be recessed but what they 'see' should be considered when positioning them.

**stachoo** · 1 April 2010, 09:25 AM

PIRs with external sensor

Idratek produces a version of their PIRs that has an external sensor attached to the main box by a 1 m long wire. If you use these, you can easily hide the box behind a MDF panel with the sensor itself appearing through a 8mm hole.

**Karam** · 1 April 2010, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by stachoo View Post

Idratek produces a version of their PIRs that has an external sensor attached to the main box by a 1 m long wire. If you use these, you can easily hide the box behind a MDF panel with the sensor itself appearing through a 8mm hole.

This is not a standard item. It is bespoked for some of our larger clients. Bespoking is expensive in effort. But it does illustrate a physically possible option. Along the same lines it would be physically possible to put temperature, RH, and light level sensors on the end of a short wire using screened cable and finding some suitable final enclosure. But at present if you wanted to do this, though we would be happy to give guidance, it would be a case of 'hacking' an existing module at your own responsibility.

**chris_j_hunter** · 1 April 2010, 11:25 AM

PIRs are, AIUI, fairly easy to do this for - just about any PIR unit from any another manufacturer could be connected by lead to any Idratek module that has a digital input, which could be most of them !

And humidity & temperature are behind the front panel, anyway, so no problem for them being hidden away, either, so long as airflow is unimpeded ...

And light & IR would just need a hole, carefully arranged to allow them to see enough (large or small, perhaps tapered, depends on situation) ...

'paralleling the thoughts about PIRs (two relays, etc), how about smoke detectors (of whatever sort) ... we've in-mind to include some of them, too, in the HA set-up - details depend on the reg's, there might have to be a minimum number in a normal set-up, hopefully paralleled to digital inputs on Idratek modules, and the rest just on Idratek - 'point being that we had a dishwasher failure a week or two back in which water failed to flow into the machine & the heating element still came on, and it was just as well we were there at the time, which's made us think of other risks, too) ...

**djgrah** · 1 April 2010, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by chris_j_hunter View Post

...how about smoke detectors (of whatever sort) ... we've in-mind to include some of them, too, in the HA set-up - details depend on the reg's, there might have to be a minimum number in a normal set-up, hopefully paralleled to digital inputs on Idratek modules, and the rest just on Idratek - ...

We are thinking of doing the same with smoke detectors. Regs say (as I understand it anyway) you have to have a mains powered smoke alarm with battery backup within 3m of each habitable room. If you need more than 1, they must be linked together so that they all go off at the same time. I haven't had time to look for any suitable detectors yet, I would be interestd to know what you are thinking of using if you have something in mind. Irritatingly the property we are renovating already has a very good, addressable, fire alarm installed complete with smoke/heat detectors sounders and manual call points (used to be an office) OK, this would be a bit ott for a house but it would be nice to have been able to keep some of it! As it stands it would be cheaper for us to rip it out and throw it away and have three smoke alarms installed as the mods required and the ongoing service costs are astronomical!

**chris_j_hunter** · 2 April 2010, 12:28 AM

hmm - our short list includes: ESP Fireline (TLC do them), Zeta/Fyreye/Premier (DFS do them), Kidde, and Firex ... the first two offer a system approach, linking relatively simple units to an intelligent control box, with limited interfacing possibilities to Idratek, but a reasonable overall price, and the last two offer linkable individual fully-capable units with a relay option, which would be better for tying-in with Idratek, but would result in bulky units & some expense ... the Zeta line includes a sounder with adjustable volume, which could be a clincher for us !

but it has to be said we've yet to find what we're really looking for - neatness & capability ...

one problem, we find, is that the info' available via websites, including datasheets, doesn't really tell us the full story ...

PS: looks like we'll go for the Zeta / Premier / Fyreye (seems to have lots of names) system :

Just a moment...

http://www.discountfiresupplies.co.uk/category/83/Fire-Alarm-Panels

price is OK, when it's all added up (can be less than a non-system approach), and it includes relay & dual relay base options, variable volume levels & tones, a reasonable range of detectors, and some handy inputs & outputs in the panel ...

Behind glass ?

Behind glass ?

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