Planning

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  • ha-darren
    Automated Home Lurker
    • Mar 2007
    • 6

    Planning

    I moved into a 30 year old house about 3 months ago and I'm interested in retro-fitting some HA. I'm thinking of changing a lot of electrics and I'm quite prepared to run masses of cabling.

    The plan is to have a number of touchscreen control panels linked to a PC. I'd like the panels to be able to control everything from heating & light to home audio.

    I am a software developer so I will write all the control software myself, but I don't know a great deal about the various protocols. I spent some time reading up on X10, but it doesn't look like a reliable and futureproof system for someone prepared to start from scratch. I've starting reading up on CBUS and it looks more promising, but can someone advise on a suitable protocol? Maybe there is a document which does a protocol comparison?
  • toscal
    Moderator
    • Oct 2005
    • 2061

    #2
    Have you had a look at EIB/Konnex. I'm only mentioning this as a few forum members have reported problems with CBUS.
    Have a look here www.konnex.org/
    And also here www.eibshop.co.uk/
    IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT WITH A HAMMER, YOU'VE GOT AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM.
    Renovation Spain Blog

    Comment

    • Paul_B
      Automated Home Legend
      • Jul 2006
      • 608

      #3
      I can vouch for the Idratek system, www.idratek.com, which uses a BUS wiring scheme. Cable can be pretty much anyting but CAT5 works well

      Comment

      • ha-darren
        Automated Home Lurker
        • Mar 2007
        • 6

        #4
        Perhaps I'm jumping too far ahead looking for a suitable protocol when I should be deciding on a transport medium to get technical plans drawn up.

        Most protocols I've looked at work over CAT5, so is it a safe bet to say if I put CAT5 in I'm going to have choices with protocol? Unless each protocol has a specific way it needs to be wired; in series, lights in series, etc. Power too - maybe some protocols needs a 230v supply to each applicance whilst others can power low voltage appliances directly?

        It's quite complex trying to get an overview of how everything fits together

        Comment

        • TimH
          Automated Home Legend
          • Feb 2004
          • 509

          #5
          Originally posted by ha-darren View Post
          Perhaps I'm jumping too far ahead looking for a suitable protocol when I should be deciding on a transport medium to get technical plans drawn up.

          Most protocols I've looked at work over CAT5, so is it a safe bet to say if I put CAT5 in I'm going to have choices with protocol? Unless each protocol has a specific way it needs to be wired; in series, lights in series, etc. Power too - maybe some protocols needs a 230v supply to each applicance whilst others can power low voltage appliances directly?

          It's quite complex trying to get an overview of how everything fits together

          While a number of systems will run over a cable with 4 twisted pairs, not all Cat5 is created equal. For example, to be able to run low voltage cable (including Cat5) in the same enclosure as mains voltages, the sheath of the LV cable needs to be suitably rated. The pink CBus Cat5 is so rated, but I doubt most bog-standard Cat5 is.

          Additionally, the EIB/KNX system uses a different type of cable and a bus configuration.

          I suggest you decide what system you want and then install the cables to suit

          Cat5 is very versatile and will cover a lot - you can run A/V signals over it, network data, IR, telephones, low voltage signals etc. - but it's better to think a bit more up front, rather than rushing in and regretting it later.

          The alternative is not to install any cable at all, but to provide ducting etc. so you can install it later once you've decided. Just install the ducting/trunking to every conceivable location, and then some more

          HTH,

          Tim.
          My Flickr Photos

          Comment

          • toscal
            Moderator
            • Oct 2005
            • 2061

            #6
            Have to agree with Tim. If you are not too sure just install the conduit, and if you think you need 2 make allowances for 4. Its easy to put the extra conduit in now rather than later. When running conduit remember try not to put too many bends in it. I normally recommend no more than 2 bends, in the conduit, if this is not possible then add a suitable junction box before the third bend. This has the added advantage of making it a little easier when you want to add more cable.
            IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT WITH A HAMMER, YOU'VE GOT AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM.
            Renovation Spain Blog

            Comment

            • chevy_b69
              Automated Home Lurker
              • Mar 2007
              • 5

              #7
              hey darren

              although i have not installed any home automation yet, i am an electrician by trade, and if your gonna do masses of electrical work then get one to help you, he will let u know how many bends to put in your conduit (yes, no more than two before adding a junction box.)

              i will be spending a few years planning my house/ self build and i am having trouble learning the software/ protocol side of things but the cabling is easy, i recommend a book called "HTI+ home technology integrator & cedia installer 1" you can buy it online, i think i got mine from amazon.

              anyway if you need any advice on the 230v maybe we can help each other as my knowledge of software is limited.

              p.s. check this site out, what do u think, its what i am opting for at the mo.

              Comment

              • ha-darren
                Automated Home Lurker
                • Mar 2007
                • 6

                #8
                anyway if you need any advice on the 230v maybe we can help each other as my knowledge of software is limited.
                I'd be happy to help if I can and the offer of advice is one I may well take you up on!

                The LinuxMCE project looks very good and I will make sure I try it out before I make any decisions on software.

                As for my planning I've taken it back a step and started to look at the 'features' I would like (or may like in the future). Once I've got that written down and planned I can look at protocols and get a better idea of how suitable they will be for me. Type of features I have in mind are;

                - full house audio
                - full house video (not sure about quality though, perhaps s-video is ok)
                - remote control of all light switches / plug sockets
                - manual control of all light switches / plug sockets
                - LAN connections in every room
                - control of heating temperatures, perhaps with electronic thermostatic valves
                - polling of switches/sockets so I can tell if they are on/off

                Comment

                • chevy_b69
                  Automated Home Lurker
                  • Mar 2007
                  • 5

                  #9
                  have a look at lutron for lighting, Elk for secuirity, and russound for multi room AV, and RCS for thermostats.

                  Dont go for s-vidieo as it deosnt support HD, have a look at HDMI as its the future and is capable of beyond HD resolution, it will also but compulsory in a year or so for use with blue ray and HD discs and HD programmes unless someone cracks the code none registered products like monitors wont work without it.

                  as for your planning, yes work out exactly what u want and write it down i did that when i read my first book on the subject "home automation and wiring" which i stopped half way through as it is dated.

                  I am trying to decide which OS i am going to use, my 2 prioritys being, 1. relability 2. ease of use, there are a lot of options out there, premise systems, homeseer, WME, MAINlobby to name a few, my understanding and experience tell me that although windows is easy to use its not reliable so, i dont want to use anything that is windows based, but are the others any better ? what do u think ?

                  Comment

                  • ha-darren
                    Automated Home Lurker
                    • Mar 2007
                    • 6

                    #10
                    Originally posted by chevy_b69 View Post
                    Dont go for s-vidieo as it deosnt support HD
                    My concern was cost to be honest. I looked briefly at KAT5 which would allow me to send AV over 2 CAT5 cables, but I should consider a high quality connection to the main living room at least.

                    Originally posted by chevy_b69 View Post
                    I am trying to decide which OS i am going to use, my 2 prioritys being, 1. relability 2. ease of use
                    Ease of use really depends on the software. Windows gets a lot of stick for reliability, but it's not always justified. My personal reasons for avoiding windows and proprietry software are;

                    - it requires software licences and more powerful hardware in comparison to linux
                    - linux generally stores configuration in text files or something easily accessible, so when it all goes wrong it's easier to fix
                    - open source gathers a large user community for help and the ability to extend the software if it doesn't meet all your requirements

                    Whichever way you choose to go I'm sure the journey will be full of hair pulling moments! Regardless of any promises by software or hardware vendors, things never seem to go smoothly in complex projects
                    Last edited by ha-darren; 11 April 2007, 09:48 PM.

                    Comment

                    • chevy_b69
                      Automated Home Lurker
                      • Mar 2007
                      • 5

                      #11
                      have found a list of OS its a good site but not uk based, i am in london where are you, let me know what u think have you decided what OS your gonna use ?

                      Last edited by chevy_b69; 9 April 2007, 06:58 PM.

                      Comment

                      • ha-darren
                        Automated Home Lurker
                        • Mar 2007
                        • 6

                        #12
                        I'm not sure I can decide on OS/software until I have some kind of system to test them out on. I could spend hours reading up on features and reviews, but it's more likely I'll install a bunch of them to test when I have the gadgets wired up in the house.

                        It's the reason why most automation I install must have a manual override (light switches/sockets/etc) as I want the central computer to compliment the system rather than be the only way to control it.

                        I'm based about 15 miles north of Cambridge.

                        Comment

                        • chevy_b69
                          Automated Home Lurker
                          • Mar 2007
                          • 5

                          #13
                          yes design the system then see what software will work with it, maybe thats better, will need some thought, though i am sure both methods are practical.

                          Comment

                          • TimH
                            Automated Home Legend
                            • Feb 2004
                            • 509

                            #14
                            Originally posted by chevy_b69 View Post
                            although i have not installed any home automation yet, i am an electrician by trade, and if your gonna do masses of electrical work then get one to help you, he will let u know how many bends to put in your conduit (yes, no more than two before adding a junction box.)
                            Unless you opt for very large diameter conduits, I wouldn't recommend going for a "fully-piped" conduit system.

                            What I did was bury trunking into the walls that opened out into the void between the ground floor ceiling and 1st-floor floor - you then get oodles of space to run the cables in whichever direction suits them best. It also means it's easer to run the cables, particularly in a retrofit environment (like mine was/is).

                            HTH

                            Tim.
                            My Flickr Photos

                            Comment

                            • TimH
                              Automated Home Legend
                              • Feb 2004
                              • 509

                              #15
                              Originally posted by ha-darren View Post
                              I looked briefly at KAT5 which would allow me to send AV over 2 CAT5 cables, but I should consider a high quality connection to the main living room at least.
                              KAT5 will let you distribute HD signals over Component video. KAT5 is a very high quality distribution system. The early Sky HD boxes had *only* Component connectors at first, it's only the later ones that have included HDMI as well.
                              See here for the signal format pecking order:


                              Originally posted by ha-darren View Post
                              there are a lot of options out there, premise systems, homeseer, WME, MAINlobby to name a few, my understanding and experience tell me that although windows is easy to use its not reliable so, i dont want to use anything that is windows based, but are the others any better ? what do u think.
                              Without starting a holy war over which OS is best I'd suggest Windows is fine if you only use it for what you initially set out to do. The problems generally come when you try to get a single machine to do all manner of other stuff. Something that's true of most other OSs. With Windows the temptation always seems to be "well I'll just add this, or that etc." and soon the machine slows right down and you have inter-operability issues. Dedicate the machine to it's task, with quality software and Windows will be no worse than anything else (IMHO, of course )

                              There's also plenty of free, community-supported software that runs on Windows, e.g. xAP & xPL to name just two

                              HTH,

                              Tim.

                              (I used to work as an industrial process controls engineer - all of the operator workstations in some quite hairy plants had Windows OS. They were only used for plant control and they worked just fine )
                              Last edited by TimH; 11 April 2007, 09:37 PM.
                              My Flickr Photos

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