DIN Rail modules

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  • sonix
    Automated Home Sr Member
    • May 2006
    • 50

    DIN Rail modules

    I'm no electrcian, so it's probably above my head, but I am curious, what's involved in installing Din rail modules such as the LD11?

    Do you need individual wiring coming from each light to the module?

    Does that mean you'd have to re-wire all the lights if you wanted to have all your modules in a central enclosure?

    Thanks in advance.
  • toscal
    Moderator
    • Oct 2005
    • 2061

    #2
    http://www.letsautomate.com/images/ld10wiring2.jpg take a look here. But essentially the wiring for each light has to go to were the LD11 is. I did this in my office. I don't have any normal light switches. The wiring for the lights goes back to the fuse box and the lights connect to the LD11s there. For a switch I use and ACT TK284 8 button transmitter. You can program each button individually so its quite versatile.
    Take a look here at a few photos. www.geocities.com/toscal/install.html
    IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT WITH A HAMMER, YOU'VE GOT AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM.
    Renovation Spain Blog

    Comment

    • sonix
      Automated Home Sr Member
      • May 2006
      • 50

      #3
      Thanks for that, but just to clarify, could i simply add the LD11s inside (or near) my existing fusebox, and the get an electrician to wire up the lights.

      All the lighting wires must go behind the fusebox at some point.

      I guess what I'm asking is, in a typical house/flat, if you wanted to use LD11s for all / some of the lights, how would you go about doing it?

      Also where can you buy the TK284 from? and will they work in the UK?

      Thanks.

      Comment

      • toscal
        Moderator
        • Oct 2005
        • 2061

        #4
        The LD11s don't need to be in the fuse box, as long as you have a mains supply going to them and then the wires from the lights going back to the LD11s, I see no reason why you can't put the anywhere you like.
        Have sent a pm about the TK284.
        IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT WITH A HAMMER, YOU'VE GOT AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM.
        Renovation Spain Blog

        Comment

        • theautomationstore
          Automated Home Jr Member
          • Aug 2007
          • 10

          #5
          The DIN Rail Modules control everything connected to that circuit. If you put them in your fuse box you would then have to runa new circuit to only the lights you wanted to control. You may find other methods cheaper and easier, as DIN Modules are proffesional units and are covered by Part P of the bulding regulations, therefore if you did install them in your situaation, they would need to be tested under Part P of the building regulations, by a qualified personnell.

          Other solutions could include the back box modules, LW10 wall switches or
          LM15EB/ES modules.

          Comment

          • jpdw
            Automated Home Guru
            • Oct 2007
            • 169

            #6
            Originally posted by theautomationstore View Post
            DIN Modules are proffesional units and are covered by Part P of the bulding regulations, therefore if you did install them in your situaation, they would need to be tested under Part P of the building regulations, by a qualified personnell.
            Surely this depends where you are putting the DIN modules? For instance, if they are in the CU/fusebox, then for certain they are notifiable under Part P (if in England / Wales). But if DIN modules are located in a suitable box downstream from (and connected to an appropriate MCB in) an existing CU then is this not "Adding lighting points to an existing circuit", which would not be notifiable (so long as not in a kitchen etc).

            The difference is important (to me anyway... as I'm planning work on the house ... to include a CU upgrade and HA installation - minimising the amount of reliance on the electrician is key to not only cost but flexibility)
            Jon

            Comment

            • theautomationstore
              Automated Home Jr Member
              • Aug 2007
              • 10

              #7
              The DIN rail unit could be seen as an extra switch point in it's own right.
              Putting a DIN rail dimmer unit in a CCU would require changing the existing wiring (daisey-chain/switchline) layout to a star wiring layout with dedicated cables from the CU to each light fitting and each switch point.
              Putting the DIN rail unit at a point that dosen't require a change to the wiring, puts it at the light fitting, wow, that will look ugly, the connections would need to be accessible, so you can hide it above the ceiling (unless its accessible).

              Also, in the warnings section of the user manual, it states that they should only be installed by a certified installer, I interpret this may invalidate the manufaturers warenty in it were not.

              You are best to seek advice from your local authority.

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              Comment

              • jpdw
                Automated Home Guru
                • Oct 2007
                • 169

                #8
                Originally posted by theautomationstore View Post
                Putting the DIN rail unit at a point that dosen't require a change to the wiring, puts it at the light fitting, wow, that will look ugly, the connections would need to be accessible, so you can hide it above the ceiling (unless its accessible).
                Yes that would look ugly... but follow my line of thinking for a moment... What about having a DIN rail in a suitable box mounted at a point that's convenient for several existing lighting circuits that you want to X10 ? The circuits are all supplied by a CU elsewhere (and fused/protected as usual).

                Going back to the OP's question, it would still mean some re-wiring. How much & how extensive would depend on the situation ... For instance, in my conservatory I have a convenient boxing/cupboard below the existing switch plates. Extending the (surface mounted) cabling will be very easy.

                But my point is that I'm certain DIN rail modules have a use other than just in a CU, and that (to my mind at least) surely mounting a DIN rail module in a box (other than a CU) is as part-p non-notifiable as adding a 2nd light switch to an existing circuit.

                Originally posted by theautomationstore View Post
                Also, in the warnings section of the user manual, it states that they should only be installed by a certified installer, I interpret this may invalidate the manufaturers warenty in it were not.
                "Certified installer" could mean many things, but presumably this is intended (a) as a disclaimer and (b) as strong encouragement that if you are mounting the DIN rail in a CU that you should employ a professional trained & regulated as approriate to where you are.
                Jon

                Comment

                • toscal
                  Moderator
                  • Oct 2005
                  • 2061

                  #9
                  I did something similar for a client. I mounted a small din rail box in the ceiling space (suspended ceiling) and placed 2 din rail modules in the box, wired up the lights and put the ceiling panel back.
                  This part P seems to be open to different ways of interpretation. Luckily for the moment we don't really have this problem in Spain. Though we do have a few oddities.
                  IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT WITH A HAMMER, YOU'VE GOT AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM.
                  Renovation Spain Blog

                  Comment

                  • jpdw
                    Automated Home Guru
                    • Oct 2007
                    • 169

                    #10
                    Originally posted by toscal View Post
                    I did something similar for a client. I mounted a small din rail box in the ceiling space (suspended ceiling) and placed 2 din rail modules in the box, wired up the lights and put the ceiling panel back.
                    This part P seems to be open to different ways of interpretation. Luckily for the moment we don't really have this problem in Spain. Though we do have a few oddities.
                    Over on the UKHA mailing list (which incidentally seems more active than the forum) I asked about a DIN-rail DP that looked okay in a domestic environment (after seeing someones HA piccies). In my conservatory example it's simply a way to have a neat solution without star-wiring all the way back to the CU. Part-P aside having DIN modules mounted in a separate box (even if adjacent to the CU) seems an advantage -- I would not want to do anything inside the CU but am quite happy working "downstream" in a panel fused & protected at the CU - isn't that just what a light switch or socket plate are?

                    You are right about interpretation. Paraphrasing the text, work that is adding light fittings and switches "to an existing circuit" is not notifiable *. To add a light fitting and a switch you have to run some cable... and what's an existing circuit? Maybe I should ask my electrician to fit me a new CU where the lighting "circuits" just connect to an on/off on a seperate DP... now I can put in all the DIN rail modules I like without having to notify? (It is still a requirement that the work is done to the same standard though -- but at least I dont have to pay the council to take a look).

                    Or maybe I'm mis-reading it entirely? Anyways, I'm coming to the conclusion that I need to try to have a chat with my local BCO as it seems each LABC has its own interpretation / level of enforcement interest....

                    Sorry... this is going very OT now. Maybe we need a new thread "How do you interpret Part P?".

                    ----
                    * except spec location etc,...
                    Last edited by jpdw; 5 November 2007, 05:53 PM.
                    Jon

                    Comment

                    • MIRV
                      Automated Home Lurker
                      • Nov 2007
                      • 5

                      #11
                      My Two Penny Worth

                      Hi,

                      I trained as an electrician many many years ago but the job i do now means i haven't had any current training. the original question asked about installing DIN rail units near a CCU. i assume that we realise that the only cables in a CCU are the main lighting feeds, and Ring Circuit feeds, there is no way to control individual lights from a CU or a position near a CU.

                      if you want to control individual room lighting you would need to fit the DIN rail unit at the location of the light, you would also need to install a switch to overide it unless you intend leaving every light in the house on.

                      the DIN rail unit has exposed terminals so it really needs to be fitted inside an enclosure, personally i wouldn't screw the DIN rail to bare wood then clip modules onto it i would bung it in a plastic enclosure.

                      I don't think there is a problem with you doing the work under the new regulations providing you don't make the final connection. Get it tested by a professional who can then make the final connection.

                      having just taken a quick look at the unit it has an input for a local switch, as the unit needs to have a live and neutral in order to function it would have to be fitted at the lamp, if you wanted to fit these locally at the CCU you would need to wire two two core cables to the room, one dropping off at the switch the other running up to the light fitting. this will cost a bomb to do as you would need to run two two core cables to every room.

                      i'm not sure what the current trend is amongst sparks when wiring houses these days but if it is done using junction boxes there won't be a live and neutral at the lamp just a switch line and neutral, with a live and switch line at the switch.

                      if it is done the three plate way by looping the live and neutral from ceiling rose to ceiling rose and dropping down to the switch then your going to have to fit the DIN module at the light fitting under the floor boards.

                      Regards

                      Mirv

                      Comment

                      • toscal
                        Moderator
                        • Oct 2005
                        • 2061

                        #12
                        Originally posted by MIRV View Post

                        if you want to control individual room lighting you would need to fit the DIN rail unit at the location of the light, you would also need to install a switch to overide it unless you intend leaving every light in the house on.

                        Mirv
                        Not true.
                        My LD11 modules are mounted in the consumer unit, for the office and I have full control over my lighting. All the electrician did was to run the lighting wiring from the lights back to the CU then connect this wiring to the LD11s. Sure if you want to use normal switches you would have to wire these switches back to the CU. I have 3 LD11 din rail modules each one connected to 2 mains halogen downlighters. As for control I don't use normal switches, see my first post here.
                        IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT WITH A HAMMER, YOU'VE GOT AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM.
                        Renovation Spain Blog

                        Comment

                        • MIRV
                          Automated Home Lurker
                          • Nov 2007
                          • 5

                          #13
                          OK i stand corrected but would you really want to wire your house that way. Wouldn't want to try and pass that system onto a buyer

                          Comment

                          • jpdw
                            Automated Home Guru
                            • Oct 2007
                            • 169

                            #14
                            Originally posted by MIRV View Post
                            OK i stand corrected but would you really want to wire your house that way. Wouldn't want to try and pass that system onto a buyer
                            Having the light fittings/ceiling roses run back to the CU or some other intermediate cabinet at least makes the cable more accessible than the variety of junction box I've found in the grnd floor/first floor voids of my house (including two that could only become accessible by removing the stairs!!!)

                            If "star wiring" is a problem for selling then the din modules could surely easily(*) be removed & replaced with something more "conventional" -- either per-circuit switches/mcbs or even some neat & safe & accessible wall mounted junctions -- as part of getting the place ready to sell.

                            (*) = of course if the din modules are inside the CU then removal becomes a part-p notifiable job... another reason I can see for putting them in a panel near to the CU (but not actually in the CU itself).

                            Though social trends, technology acceptance & energy costs could make having the house all "HA'd up" a benefit rather than a disadvantage.
                            Jon

                            Comment

                            • MIRV
                              Automated Home Lurker
                              • Nov 2007
                              • 5

                              #15
                              Originally posted by jpdw View Post
                              Having the light fittings/ceiling roses run back to the CU or some other intermediate cabinet at least makes the cable more accessible than the variety of junction box I've found in the grnd floor/first floor voids of my house (including two that could only become accessible by removing the stairs!!!)

                              If "star wiring" is a problem for selling then the din modules could surely easily(*) be removed & replaced with something more "conventional" -- either per-circuit switches/mcbs or even some neat & safe & accessible wall mounted junctions -- as part of getting the place ready to sell.

                              (*) = of course if the din modules are inside the CU then removal becomes a part-p notifiable job... another reason I can see for putting them in a panel near to the CU (but not actually in the CU itself).

                              Though social trends, technology acceptance & energy costs could make having the house all "HA'd up" a benefit rather than a disadvantage.
                              What you should consider is that in most houses the CU is fitted under the stairs, and in an average 3 bedroom house you would have to get the following cables from under the stairs up to the landing and then up to the loft
                              2 x either 1mm or 1,5mm for the downstairs lighting and upstairs lighting
                              2 x 2.5 mm cable for the upstairs ring circuit
                              1 x 2.5 for the immersion heater (If you have one).

                              ignoring the 2way switching for the landing and hallway lighting that adds up to 5 cables

                              to X10 a house would require 2 cables per room for the lighting plus what ever is required for the power. Plus unless you knew anything about x10 anybody buying the house and wanting any electrical work carried out would have problems getting a spark to understand it. just converting a bedroom light from single to 2 way switching would require rewiring the circuit to to location of the box where all the connections are.

                              in all the houses i rewired i managed to get the cables from under the stairs to the landing via the under side of the stairs and it was tight every time, i would not have got the 10 plus cables x10 requires via the same route.

                              x10 would work if we adopted the way some europeans wire their houses, you run a cable to a small CU fitted in each room with 2 to 3 ways one for the lighting and one for the power, the DIN modules could be mounted in or next to the CU.

                              Mirv

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