Honeywell CM Zone - basic questions

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  • Specialk
    Automated Home Lurker
    • Sep 2008
    • 3

    #31
    Two HC60NG per Cm67z

    Is it possible to have two HC60NGs per CM67z? I want to have one to control a zone valve, the other to control the heat demand signal to the boiler.

    Comment

    • NeilUK
      Automated Home Sr Member
      • Jul 2005
      • 71

      #32
      Originally posted by Specialk View Post
      Is it possible to have two HC60NGs per CM67z? I want to have one to control a zone valve, the other to control the heat demand signal to the boiler.
      Normally the zone valve actuator would include an end-switch (relay) that is used to provide the heat demand to the boiler which also ensures the valve is open before the boiler fires. Any reason why you could not do this and avoid the need for a 2nd HC60NG?

      There is no documentation to confirm if multiple HC60NGs can be registered this way - the wireless protocol does require messages to include the sending and receiving module id's so it could well be the case that there is only 1 address"slot" for a HC60NG within the CM67. Unfortunately the only way to be sure is to try it and see if it works.

      Comment

      • Specialk
        Automated Home Lurker
        • Sep 2008
        • 3

        #33
        I have a house with four floors. The boiler at the top floor while I want to zone the bottom floor. Getting a wire from the top to the bottom will not be ease. I have a hunch it might be possible:



        Originally posted by dblaby View Post
        Can anyone help me with this?

        I have got a large CM Zone system but cannot seem to get the right answers from Honeywell for my question!

        I have 4x CM67z Room Units and 5 HC60NG (4 for zone valve control bound to the CM67z's Zone 1 and One for the boiler control) and a range of HR80's bound to the CM67z Zone 2 so 8 zones in all - 4 controlled by Zone valves and 4 controlled by HR80's.

        Comment

        • southview
          Automated Home Lurker
          • Nov 2008
          • 1

          #34
          Hi, First post so here goes. When the CM67Z is programmed to off for a zone say at the end of a time segment does the rad HR80 close all the way, or does it simply not signal the boiler/pump. Reason for asking is that I am considering 4 zones, this was to be 4 x prog stats & 4 x zone valves, but if the HR80 closes roght in when the programmer goes to off or a low set back temp, then I think I can do away with the zone valves.
          Does this make sense?
          Thanks, Southview

          Comment

          • NeilUK
            Automated Home Sr Member
            • Jul 2005
            • 71

            #35
            Originally posted by southview View Post
            Hi, First post so here goes. When the CM67Z is programmed to off for a zone say at the end of a time segment does the rad HR80 close all the way, or does it simply not signal the boiler/pump. Reason for asking is that I am considering 4 zones, this was to be 4 x prog stats & 4 x zone valves, but if the HR80 closes roght in when the programmer goes to off or a low set back temp, then I think I can do away with the zone valves.
            Does this make sense?
            Thanks, Southview
            The HR80s will close when off although they also have a valve-exercise routine - this occasionally opens them should they be closed for a period of time (cannot remember if this is a fixed time period or adjustable through the config paramters) to try and prevent them seizing up when shut off for a long time (such as summer).

            So yes, you can avoid the additional zone valves as long as you are fitting HR80s to most/all radiators.

            Comment

            • dsm
              Automated Home Lurker
              • May 2010
              • 1

              #36
              Confirmation on how CM Zone works?

              I have a Combi-Condensing boiler.... with a single physical piped zone for all radiators + one thermostat. The degree of heat retention in each room varies quite a lot so I find some rooms heat ok and others are cold. Adjusting the TRV's helps.. but they do not have the ability to call for heat in a room that is colder than the location of the thermostat. Factors such a solar heat from the sun or heat loss result make difficult to control the heat evenly and is wasting gas.

              Hometronic was the initial product I was interested in... but the cost and lack of availability has detered me up until now. CM Zone... although lacking in some flexability in comparison to Hometronic, would appear to be a worthy alternative.

              Can I ask for advice as the product literature leaves me with a few questions:

              If I have three bedrooms all on the same zone, each with one radiator and a HR80 fitted... will the system call for heat from the boiler until "each" room is at the desired temperature set by the CM67z ?

              ie the HR80's sense the room temperature as oposed to the CM67z... correct?

              One bedroom is generally colder than the other two.... so takes longer to heat. So am I correct in saying that the HR80's in the other two bedroom would self adjust/close... whilst the less insulated room continued to call for heat until it caught up?

              Taking this a stage futher with multiple zones.... given that I only have one physical piped zone connecting all radiators. Does CM Zone create "virtual" zones by opening / closing the HR80's?

              So if I wanted heating in the down stairs zone but not upstairs... then the CM67z would set the HR80's upstairs to be closed... whilst the HR80's downstairs call the boiler for heat. The end result is that hot water would be pumped around all the pipe work upstairs and downstairs... but only heating the radiators downstairs.

              Is this how CM Zone operates?

              Comment

              • ukhauk
                Automated Home Jr Member
                • Apr 2006
                • 22

                #37
                Yes the system call for heat from the boiler until "each" room is at the desired temperature set by the CM67z ?

                Each HR80 radiator actuator has a temperature sensor built in

                The CM67z creates two zones with different times / setpoints for each day typically you could zone upstairs / downstairs

                If all HR80's are happy the boiler will go off

                The CM zone kit is expensive but works well and is easy to program.

                If you would like to purchase Hometronic equipment please drop me or Neil an email

                Comment

                • aekostas
                  Automated Home Lurker
                  • Feb 2011
                  • 9

                  #38
                  Hi,

                  Newbie here.

                  I am interested in this system. Do I need an installer? The installation instructions read:

                  "For existing Y Plan remove only Room Thermostat connections from Junction Box Terminals and replace with Connections to HC60NG."



                  My old RT used to have three cables, of which I only used 2 when I replaced it with the CM907. Am I just fitting these 3 cables to the appropriate terminals of the HC60NG, or do I need to reposition them in the Junction Box?

                  Many thanks in advance!

                  Also, any ideas for good prices on the pack?

                  Comment

                  • drbob
                    Automated Home Lurker
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 3

                    #39
                    Hello,

                    I'm considering an upgrade to CM zone. Our house is arranged over 3 floors and the current system has a zone valve on each floor, all radiators have manual TRVs. For various reasons the old control system must be replaced (long story). Right now some rooms remain cold even when the thermostat thinks the house is up to temperature (it's an old stone house with little scope for extra insulation and we're not going to replace any radiators).

                    I can see two ways to set up the system:

                    - A CM-zone pack (such as this one) with an additional CM927 stat for the third zone.

                    - 3 CM927 units and a few HR80 radiator valves as extra remote sensors in rooms that loose heat quicker than the rest of the house and/or for rooms where we might want to override the central set point.

                    Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. Is one option significantly better than the other? Should I be considering a totally different system? The second option is quite a bit cheaper, especially if we initially only get 1 HR80.

                    regards,

                    drbob

                    Comment

                    • SensibleHeatUK
                      Moderator
                      • Feb 2009
                      • 228

                      #40
                      Originally posted by drbob View Post
                      Hello,

                      I'm considering an upgrade to CM zone. Our house is arranged over 3 floors and the current system has a zone valve on each floor, all radiators have manual TRVs. For various reasons the old control system must be replaced (long story). Right now some rooms remain cold even when the thermostat thinks the house is up to temperature (it's an old stone house with little scope for extra insulation and we're not going to replace any radiators).

                      I can see two ways to set up the system:

                      - A CM-zone pack (such as this one) with an additional CM927 stat for the third zone.

                      - 3 CM927 units and a few HR80 radiator valves as extra remote sensors in rooms that loose heat quicker than the rest of the house and/or for rooms where we might want to override the central set point.

                      Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. Is one option significantly better than the other? Should I be considering a totally different system? The second option is quite a bit cheaper, especially if we initially only get 1 HR80.

                      regards,

                      drbob
                      I'd suggest taking a look at the new Evo Home controller - it provides control for upto 8 zones and will work just fine with HR80s and the BRD91 boiler relay module. It will certainly be cheaper than using lots of CM927s and gives you more flexibility. You can also add hot water control using the wireless cylinder stat from Honeywell too.

                      We've just added the Evo controller to our exhibition stand so you can take a look if you are visiting the HB&R Show at the NEC in a couple of weeks.

                      Evo seems to sit nicely between CM Zone and Hometronic both in features and price. Its only just been launched and as yet Honeywell have no documentation for the UK (they have different features compared to the euro model so are choosing not to use the standard euro brochure). It cannot use generic switching like Hometronic does but it will use the 868MHz heating modules such as HR80s and the Manifold Controller for underfloor use.
                      Sensible Heat
                      SensibleHeat.co.uk

                      Comment

                      • drbob
                        Automated Home Lurker
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 3

                        #41
                        Originally posted by SensibleHeatUK View Post
                        I'd suggest taking a look at the new Evo Home controller - it provides control for upto 8 zones and will work just fine with HR80s and the BRD91 boiler relay module.
                        Thanks for the feedback, based on a little bit of reading about the Evo (lots of documents here) I think I would need 3 BDR91 or HC60NG units (one for each floor/zone valve). Am I correct in thinking the HR80s would then be configured with the Evohome touchscreen as "controller" and the BDR91 relay for their zone as "boiler"?

                        As far as I can see (looking at the application examples) the evo touch can't support zoning with both zone valves and radiator valves so if I wanted to create separate zones within each floor I'd need HR80s on every radiator and to disable the zone valves?

                        Originally posted by SensibleHeatUK View Post
                        It will certainly be cheaper than using lots of CM927s and gives you more flexibility. You can also add hot water control using the wireless cylinder stat from Honeywell too.
                        I can see how it would be potentially more flexible but I'm not sure you're right about the cost comparison. If I've understood things correctly adding more zones to the evotouch beyond the three we currently have would require removal of the zone valves & fitting of HR80s (£74.95 each) to all 22 radiators within our house (at a cost of £1648.90!).

                        If we stick with the three zones I see the evo-home price breakdown as follows:
                        • The evohome controller with one relay is £251
                        • another two relays at £60 each
                        • Two DT92 sensors/setpoint adjusters - £65 each
                        • Total cost £501.

                        This is still much higher than 3 CM927 packs which cost £102 for the stat & a relay together (total £306).

                        Please let me know if I've misunderstood or miscalculated anything. One question I have about the HR80 is: does adjusting them to a higher temperature override the set-point for the entire zone or just the set point for that particular radiator?

                        Originally posted by SensibleHeatUK View Post
                        We've just added the Evo controller to our exhibition stand so you can take a look if you are visiting the HB&R Show at the NEC in a couple of weeks.
                        Wish I could make it, sadly I live a long way from Birmingham.

                        Comment

                        • aekostas
                          Automated Home Lurker
                          • Feb 2011
                          • 9

                          #42
                          Honeywell pointed me to it after I had purchased the CM Zone. I am as confused as you are about mixing controllers and HR80UKs in the evohome.

                          An additional question I had when reading about it was whether it has Party and Holiday (as in, I am at home today, rather than I am away), features sorely missing from the CM67z.

                          Still, I can answer the following:

                          Originally posted by drbob View Post
                          One question I have about the HR80 is: does adjusting them to a higher temperature override the set-point for the entire zone or just the set point for that particular radiator?
                          Just for the radiator. The other radiators in the zone (should) remain shut by virtue of their HR80UKs, whose set-point does not change.

                          But note that your boiler can modulate only by so much (mine can't at all). I don't know what effect to economy it would have to run a boiler for a single radiator and I hope there is a bypass valve or radiator somewhere in the system.

                          I hope you get some answers to the rest of your questions, I am very curious.

                          Comment

                          • aekostas
                            Automated Home Lurker
                            • Feb 2011
                            • 9

                            #43
                            Let me come back to this.

                            Originally posted by drbob View Post
                            As far as I can see (looking at the application examples) the evo touch can't support zoning with both zone valves and radiator valves so if I wanted to create separate zones within each floor I'd need HR80s on every radiator and to disable the zone valves?
                            Here is how I read the application examples. Say you want two zones in a floor controlled by BDR91 or HC60NG. You set the zones on the evohome separately. You decide which HR80UK sensor drives each of the zones (only 1 HR80UK sensor drives the zone) and you add more HR80UK actuators as required. You need to ensure that all of these HR80UK are bound to the BDR91 or HC60NG controlling the valve.

                            So I think. :-)

                            Comment

                            • SensibleHeatUK
                              Moderator
                              • Feb 2009
                              • 228

                              #44
                              Originally posted by drbob View Post
                              Thanks for the feedback, based on a little bit of reading about the Evo
                              You're right about the zone valve issue, I'd missed that when going over your requirements. Any of the main controllers can be used with HR80s and still control 1 zone valve using the Boiler Relay address slot in the device. Unfortunately you cannot asign multiple boiler relays to certain groups of rooms in Evo, Hometronic or CM Zone.

                              I was working on the assumption you would be increasing the zoning with HR80s and therefore would need more CM927s to manage these additional zones. If you stick with 3 zones then it remains cheaper to use the standard CM kit although you don't get centralised management for holidays etc. Mind you with so many rooms over 3 floors you may soon run out of space in Evo too!

                              With regards to HR80s, if you use the dial on the HR80 to change the setpoint this only affects that HR80, any others are unaffected even if they are part of the same zone. If you want all HR80s in a zone to react then you have to use the controller to make the adjustment (or a DT92e if also used within the zone).
                              Sensible Heat
                              SensibleHeat.co.uk

                              Comment

                              • SensibleHeatUK
                                Moderator
                                • Feb 2009
                                • 228

                                #45
                                Originally posted by aekostas View Post
                                Let me come back to this.



                                Here is how I read the application examples. Say you want two zones in a floor controlled by BDR91 or HC60NG. You set the zones on the evohome separately. You decide which HR80UK sensor drives each of the zones (only 1 HR80UK sensor drives the zone) and you add more HR80UK actuators as required. You need to ensure that all of these HR80UK are bound to the BDR91 or HC60NG controlling the valve.

                                So I think. :-)
                                I'm not sure this will work either as the additional HR80s will not be sending their heat demand to the BDR91, in this mode the room sensor (the first HR80) is the only device that could trigger the BDR91.

                                The Honeywell system is really designed with the standard S-Plan and Y-plan system in mind. The only way we have successfully controlled several zone valves feeding more local room zones is using the manifold controller where the HC60NG or BDR91 can be registered to the Manifold Controller directly rather than relying on the main controller to collate all of the heat demands (as it must when used with HR80s). This is because the BDR91 and HC60NG only be registered to 4 other modules so could not talk to lots of HR80s directly.
                                Sensible Heat
                                SensibleHeat.co.uk

                                Comment

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