Honeywell CM Zone - basic questions

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  • PeterH
    Automated Home Jr Member
    • Nov 2007
    • 16

    #16
    Originally posted by NeilUK View Post
    Is the HC60NG LED flashing? If the comms is lost any of the registered modules then it will flash the LED and I'm sure that it fails "safe" (i.e. on) if comms are lost. You could also try factory resetting the HC60NG and re-registering the CM67s to see if that helps.
    Thanks Neil. No the light's not flashing and there's no problem with comms. Re-setting the HC60 and then re-binding the CM67s is what the Honeywell technical people suggested a few weeks ago. It seemed to work for a while but has reverted back to cycling now (I just got in tonight 20 mins after the setpoint had dropped to its 12o night setting and there was the green light - the room temperature is 17o).

    The fault seems to have reverted when I had altered the room temperature sensor use parameter (6:tS) for the CM67z configured as the synchronisation master from the default (0: disabled) to (2: enabled and control). The reason for changing being that zone 1 of this CM67 controls a zone with 3 HR80s and they all seemed to behave differently so I switched to controlling them all together from the CM67.

    I guess I'll just have to reset everything again and see how I get on but would like to know if this is a known issue or if there it's something to do with getting the right parameter settings.

    Peter

    Comment

    • NeilUK
      Automated Home Sr Member
      • Jul 2005
      • 71

      #17
      Originally posted by PeterH View Post
      Thanks Neil. No the light's not flashing and there's no problem with comms. Re-setting the HC60 and then re-binding the CM67s is what the Honeywell technical people suggested a few weeks ago. It seemed to work for a while but has reverted back to cycling now (I just got in tonight 20 mins after the setpoint had dropped to its 12o night setting and there was the green light - the room temperature is 17o).

      The fault seems to have reverted when I had altered the room temperature sensor use parameter (6:tS) for the CM67z configured as the synchronisation master from the default (0: disabled) to (2: enabled and control). The reason for changing being that zone 1 of this CM67 controls a zone with 3 HR80s and they all seemed to behave differently so I switched to controlling them all together from the CM67.

      I guess I'll just have to reset everything again and see how I get on but would like to know if this is a known issue or if there it's something to do with getting the right parameter settings.

      Peter
      Certainly not any reported problems on any of the Honeywell technical forums.

      Have you tested the system by turning down every HR80 until they display "Off" and then waiting to see if the HC60 does switch off? The control algorithms are quite clever and use all kinds of self-learning & adaption to supposedly achieve better control than simple thermostatic switching, maybe one or more of the HR80s has got itself into a mess and this is causing the problem. You can do a factory reset on a HR80 by taking out a battery and re-inserting while holding in the binding button. You then need to re-bind it before it will start working.

      If you have optimum start enabled then the HR80s can start upto 3 hours before the entry in the time programme, could this be part of the problem overnight.

      If you set the CM67s to frost mode does the HC60 shut off?

      Finally, you could test the room sensors by blowing warm air over them from a hairdryer - they got out-of-scale as they approach 40 degrees so don't worry if you see some strange values.

      Comment

      • PeterH
        Automated Home Jr Member
        • Nov 2007
        • 16

        #18
        Thanks Neil. I've reset the HC60 and it seems to be behaving OK now, but will try the various tricks you suggested if it happens again.

        One clarification - I turned optimisation off as it seemed to be firing up way too early (4am!), shutting down after a few minutes, then coming back on a while later but getting to the setpoint temperature a good while before needed. perhaps needs more time to self-learn but we needed to sleep!

        Can you provide the links to the HW technical forums?

        Thanks,

        Peter

        Comment

        • PeterH
          Automated Home Jr Member
          • Nov 2007
          • 16

          #19
          Neil,

          One other question: Even during the day the boiler keeps cycling when the room temperature has been reached and all the TRVs are closed - so no heat is flowing (pipes are stone cold). Does this suggest that the HR80s are not adapting to my TRVs properly (Peglar Terrier IIs) so they think the valve is slightly open when in fact it's not. I noticed when I fitted the HR80 that although the motors activated nothing appeared on the display as the instructions indicated it should (ie "A followed by three additional characters appears in the display of the HR80"). Would be grateful for any insights.

          Peter

          Comment

          • NeilUK
            Automated Home Sr Member
            • Jul 2005
            • 71

            #20
            Originally posted by PeterH View Post
            Neil,

            One other question: Even during the day the boiler keeps cycling when the room temperature has been reached and all the TRVs are closed - so no heat is flowing (pipes are stone cold). Does this suggest that the HR80s are not adapting to my TRVs properly (Peglar Terrier IIs) so they think the valve is slightly open when in fact it's not. I noticed when I fitted the HR80 that although the motors activated nothing appeared on the display as the instructions indicated it should (ie "A followed by three additional characters appears in the display of the HR80"). Would be grateful for any insights.

            Peter
            If your HR80s are using version 1.X firmware (the firmware version is displayed when you press the binding button) the it could be that the automatic adaption (which aims to measure the stroke of the valve) may not be 100% successful so you could try the manual adaption technique described in the HR80 installation sheet.

            If the HR80s are V2.X then you do not have this facility but you could set the stroke to "Full" by holding the binding button until the display shows "FUL".

            If the TRV is not very linear then it could be that the HR80 thinks the valve is open at a low percentage e.g. 15% but the valve is actually still closed. This could indeed cause the cycling problem. I'll see if there is any way on a CM Zone system to find out the heating demand from the HR80. If there is I will post the info here for you.

            Comment

            • MichaelD
              Automated Home Guru
              • Mar 2006
              • 167

              #21
              I'm using a 6-zone CM-zone system and its all working very well, but I'd still rather have it controlled by the intelligence of a PC running HomeSeer.

              Does anyone know the wireless protocol that is used for the communication between the HR80 and the CM67z?

              Comment

              • NeilUK
                Automated Home Sr Member
                • Jul 2005
                • 71

                #22
                Originally posted by MichaelD View Post
                I'm using a 6-zone CM-zone system and its all working very well, but I'd still rather have it controlled by the intelligence of a PC running HomeSeer.

                Does anyone know the wireless protocol that is used for the communication between the HR80 and the CM67z?
                RF protocol is proprietry Honeywell and not published.

                Comment

                • PeterH
                  Automated Home Jr Member
                  • Nov 2007
                  • 16

                  #23
                  Thanks Neil. The software is version 2.20 which I guess is why nothing about adaptation appears in the display (would have been good if Honeywell has updated the installation leaflet!). What does setting it to "Full" do - have it either fully off or fully on? How can I reset it back to normal operaration (a full reset by reinserting the battery while pressing the binding button?).

                  Did you find anything about getting info on the HR80 heat demand?

                  Thanks again,

                  Peter

                  Comment

                  • NeilUK
                    Automated Home Sr Member
                    • Jul 2005
                    • 71

                    #24
                    Originally posted by PeterH View Post
                    Thanks Neil. The software is version 2.20 which I guess is why nothing about adaptation appears in the display (would have been good if Honeywell has updated the installation leaflet!). What does setting it to "Full" do - have it either fully off or fully on? How can I reset it back to normal operaration (a full reset by reinserting the battery while pressing the binding button?).

                    Did you find anything about getting info on the HR80 heat demand?

                    Thanks again,

                    Peter
                    Honeywell always seem to be a little slow in updating their documentation, I assume they must gets loads of support calls about these kind of things when something does not work as aspected.

                    With regards to the "Full" setting, this relates to the amount of force used to close off the valve - if you hold the registration button long enough it toggles the mode between "Def" (default) where the closing torque is measured and used to determine valve closure. Setting to "Ful" (full) switches off this feature and should be used with non-Honeywell TRVs or older TRVs that might be "sticky" and therefore need a bit more effort to close off fully. Using Full mode means the HR80 uses a bit more power when fully closing in comparison to Default mode so this does reduce the battery life a little.

                    I've drawn a blank on the HR80 heating demand, no-one I've spoken with has been able to help. I have emailed tech support in Germany but have not had a reply yet.

                    Comment

                    • KJB
                      Automated Home Lurker
                      • Feb 2008
                      • 2

                      #25
                      Another CM Zone question

                      Like several others on this thread I am trying to do some presales research on CM Zone and getting frustrated by the lack of accessible information on the Honeywell websites. I'd be really grateful if someone could help me out with some very basic questions:

                      1. With this house we inherited a number of radiators in built in covers which I am concerned will not work well with HR80s. Aside from the physical space constraint given HR80 is quite a bulky device (for which there is no alternative to checking myself) I am also concerned that temperature sensing on the HR80 will be confused by being in a confined radiator cover space. One of the pdf fact sheets that I could find online mentioned the ability to use an RF temperature sensor with these components but without mention of part numbers. The only items I can google seem to be intended for the HR50 and the Hometronic system. I think I have worked out that the CM67z can operate as a room temperature sensor to control its zone 1, but the cost of adding those mounts up pretty quickly because these covers are in a lot of rooms. Does anyone know of a simpler wired or wireless alternative for remote temperature sensing on the HR80 outside the radiator cabinet?

                      2. If there is no alternative to using extra CM67s then I am going to need 8 of them to cover the house. Again the literature is patchy but I think I understand from an earlier post in this thread that I can bind 4 CM67z's to one boiler relay. Is that definitely correct? And is it also correct that most installers would be able to connect two boiler relays in parallel without particular issues?

                      Many thanks again.

                      Comment

                      • NeilUK
                        Automated Home Sr Member
                        • Jul 2005
                        • 71

                        #26
                        Originally posted by KJB View Post
                        Like several others on this thread I am trying to do some presales research on CM Zone and getting frustrated by the lack of accessible information on the Honeywell websites. I'd be really grateful if someone could help me out with some very basic questions:

                        1. With this house we inherited a number of radiators in built in covers which I am concerned will not work well with HR80s. Aside from the physical space constraint given HR80 is quite a bulky device (for which there is no alternative to checking myself) I am also concerned that temperature sensing on the HR80 will be confused by being in a confined radiator cover space. One of the pdf fact sheets that I could find online mentioned the ability to use an RF temperature sensor with these components but without mention of part numbers. The only items I can google seem to be intended for the HR50 and the Hometronic system. I think I have worked out that the CM67z can operate as a room temperature sensor to control its zone 1, but the cost of adding those mounts up pretty quickly because these covers are in a lot of rooms. Does anyone know of a simpler wired or wireless alternative for remote temperature sensing on the HR80 outside the radiator cabinet?

                        2. If there is no alternative to using extra CM67s then I am going to need 8 of them to cover the house. Again the literature is patchy but I think I understand from an earlier post in this thread that I can bind 4 CM67z's to one boiler relay. Is that definitely correct? And is it also correct that most installers would be able to connect two boiler relays in parallel without particular issues?

                        Many thanks again.
                        The CM67 room sensor definitely can do what you need in regard to radiator controllers in cabinets. And the 4 module address limit on HC60NGs has also been confirmed by Honeywell themselves. There are no issues connecting the HC60NGs in parallel unless you have separate zone valves & pumps already providing some zoning of your system - e.g. ground floor zone pump & valve. If you do have this arrangement then you need to use the HC60NG to operate the the motor on the zone valve and the pump, then use the zone valve end-switch to operate the boiler. If you only have zone pumps then you need to use relays to isolate the pump and boiler switching.

                        Comment

                        • KJB
                          Automated Home Lurker
                          • Feb 2008
                          • 2

                          #27
                          Many thanks NeilUK for the help. As far as I can tell the system is simply a heating circuit and a hot water circuit so it sounds like I have a solution.

                          Comment

                          • NeilUK
                            Automated Home Sr Member
                            • Jul 2005
                            • 71

                            #28
                            Don't forget to include a timeclock for your hot water, CM Zone only controls the heating.

                            Comment

                            • GuidoVDB
                              Automated Home Lurker
                              • Oct 2008
                              • 4

                              #29
                              HR 40 and HR80 combined ?

                              Recently I installed 30 HR40.

                              Now I read about HR80. Maybe I bought the wrong TRV.

                              Now I have an oil burner, but soon a gas condensing burner with outside temp sensor.

                              There are old wide (3cm) tubes with old beautiful rad in melted iron : it warms up slowly but keeps temperature for a long time.

                              I see 3 solutions :

                              1° Although everywhere I read not to have TRV functioning near the thermostat, I'm experimenting by setting HR40 temp as close as possible to thermostat temp in living room, so I get heathcapacity for other TRV when thermostat reached temperature. I program HR40 near thermostat in living room : TRV 22° in the morning when I don't need capacity on other TRV because they warm up at about the same time, and TRV 0,5° lower in the afternoon to create capacity in the evening for other TRV. Thermostat shuts down at 20 h 30 and still have heath in system until 24 h for office and bathroom because of wide tubes I guess. Pomp is still running then because connected to temp sensor on tubes. So at night I get all of the heath out of the system by using it useful in office and bathroom. Otherwise I think this heath is lost during the 7 h night I think.
                              Then try to delay 0,5° drop in TRV, untill I lack heath in the evening in other TRV, then put difference earlier.
                              For the moment I'm having good results with it but I don't know if it is the most economical solution. But seems to work. Maybe the success is also weather related.

                              2° Install Honeywell zone with HR80, but I'm not willing to buy all new HR80.
                              Would it be possible to use only 1 HR80, or maybe 2 HR80 by zone, the other TRV's in same zone being HR40 programmed to nearly same temperature and timing ?
                              Like that I would also be able to create a small temperature difference in the same zone : a big office, warm near my desk, somewhat colder closer to windows.
                              Or does the Honeywell zone controlling takes in to account the number of HR80 per zone to determine the burn time. If so my proposal would not work.
                              I read good comments on HR80, but am still a little bit reluctant because of so called "fuzzy logic" and also because many things in the office are already wireless.
                              Would the possibility to use remaining heath in the tubes in the evening without starting the burner, like I do now, remain with HR80 ?

                              3° I wonder if there is no way of using all the HR40 without thermostat, and only starting up the burner by detection of waterflow (opening of TRV) and if temp in pipes < x°.
                              Of course this would require the pump to run from 7 am to 12 pm to be able to sense the starting waterflow when a TRV opens.
                              This would create as many zones as HR40, I think.
                              But maybe this doesn't work technically ?

                              Guido.

                              Comment

                              • PeterH
                                Automated Home Jr Member
                                • Nov 2007
                                • 16

                                #30
                                CM Zone cycling problem

                                I first posted on this thread over one year ago after problems with my new CM Zone system needlessly calling the boiler to cycle. Although I never solved this problem it seemed to become less noticeable so I forgot about it and hoped it had gone away.

                                My system comprises 2 CM 67zs, 6 HR80UKs (3 in one zone rest 1 per zone) and 1 HC60NG.

                                With the heating season back again, albeit with kinder weather so far, it's back with a vengance. The basic problem is that when the ambient temperature is slightly above the set temperature the boiler cycling comes on even through the rads stay fully shut and stone cold.

                                This seems to be worse because of the warmer weather because the ambient temperature hovers around the set point - when it's colder the heating has to come on full blast rather than cycling.

                                I have tried numerous different parameter settings but none make any difference. I've now resorted to setting the minimum on time to 1 minute (3:Ot=1) rather than the recommended 4 for my oil fired boiler, and cycle rate 3 per hour (8:Cr=3) so now it onely does it for 1 minute every 20 minutes. Still uses fuel to do nothing though.

                                My questions are: Will the minimum cycle time of 1 minute do my oil fired boiler any harm; and does anyone else have this cycling problem and has anyone any suggestions how to fix it - are there any other parameters that can be adjusted to stop this (eg what does the Proportional Band Width parameter do- is it anything to do with how close to the setpoint the controller thinks about calling for heat?) Of course Honeywell documentation completely useless about any of this but I've come to expect this as part of the normal service.

                                Any ideas would be gratefully received.

                                Peter

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