Ideas/comments on my plans please

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  • Dippy
    Automated Home Lurker
    • Jul 2006
    • 2

    Ideas/comments on my plans please

    Hi all,

    Just decided to start using this forum as I have plans for some home automation. I'm still at the planning stage and am going through the "what else could I do?" phase.

    My situation is that I am having a small extension built. Because the ceilings are rubbish I had them pulled down on the ground floor, so I have plenty of access for fixed wiring. This good because I am anti-wireless (for reasons of unreliability). Part of the building work also allows the creation of a new downstairs toilet, which frees up the current understairs toilet to use as a cupboard/equipment room. I also have an open loft so plenty of access there. I can get cabling from the equipment room to the loft via either the airing cupboard or the back of a bedroom cupboard.

    My plans are as follows:

    1) New lighting system. I have selected the JCL FlexiDim system. It has an ethernet port and I intend to put it on an internal network just to make programming easier using a PC in the study instead of a laptop. I think it can be linked into other systems but I haven't thought much about that. The system will also control bathroom ventilation fans and curtain/blind controllers.

    2) Cat5e cabling. Other than the stuff I need for the lighting, I intend to put in enough runs to hopefully future-proof me. I imagine a home network, plus AV.

    3) New security system. I don't need to go overboard here so I intend to put in a fairly regular system. However I'd like to have one that I can put on the home network so that I can program/interrogate it from a PC. I haven't researched this yet. I'm not bothered about CCTV.

    4) Door entry system. The way my house is, the study is a bit of a way from the front door. I'd like to have some sort of video-phone system, mainly so I can tell a caller that I'm on my way. Can I get a system that will use the home network?

    5) TV coax. I'd really prefer not to have to do this (see below) but I guess I'll need to run some extra. I don't have SKY but maybe I need to add extra runs just in case.

    I'm not bothered about automation of the central heating and don't plan on any air conditioning. Also I have dismissed multi-room audio. We already have automated garage doors.

    Any comments on my plans? Any other good ideas for me to consider?

    My main concern at the moment is AV. I don't want anything sophisticated, but what I want does not appear to exist. At the moment we just have coax down to a freeview box in each room.

    What I would like to do is have all my AV distributed by Cat5e. This should include TV. I'm not in a cabled area so the TV has to be Freeview or SKY. I'm aware that there are various systems about that allow distribution of AV streams, and a familiar with Windows Media Center (and that XBOX supports it). But I don't believe that SKY can be integrated with such a system.

    I'd really love to just put Cat5e cable to every TV location and then run coax from the loft to the equipment room for aerial and dish connection. Is this sensible or am I dreaming?
  • toscal
    Moderator
    • Oct 2005
    • 2061

    #2
    Have a look at www.abitana.com It does use its own modified Cat5 cable rather than a normal Cat5. But this may fit your needs for now and in the future. Plus you don't need to run any TV coax if you use the Abitana stuff. You will need to run some for SAT TV from the dish to the digi box.
    There are systems such as the Barix Annuncicom Intercom 100, this works via an ethernet connection. www.barix.com.
    Many video door phone systems use 4 to 6 wires so run a CAT5 or similar to the front door or gate and then back to node 0. Many systems allow for the connection of a slave monitor.
    Good luck
    Last edited by toscal; 30 November 2007, 09:29 PM.
    IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT WITH A HAMMER, YOU'VE GOT AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM.
    Renovation Spain Blog

    Comment

    • pocky
      Automated Home Jr Member
      • Oct 2007
      • 19

      #3
      You can also look at www.BritishHomeNet.com

      Similar to abitana but with a higher grade cable (MultiMedia type better than Cat6 and than the so called "Cat.8) so that you can run SKY/satellite without electronic converters and a lot of other stuff.

      Comment

      • total novice
        Automated Home Lurker
        • Dec 2007
        • 6

        #4
        Interested in modified cat5 cable

        Originally posted by pocky View Post
        You can also look at www.BritishHomeNet.com

        Similar to abitana but with a higher grade cable (MultiMedia type better than Cat6 and than the so called "Cat.8) so that you can run SKY/satellite without electronic converters and a lot of other stuff.

        Pocky,

        I want to get the right cabling into my new build and I am prepared to pay for the right stuff. I gather that the cat 5e modified cable you are talking about (along with abitana) does everything cat 5 & coax do and more.

        Another poster (bigfoot Tim) recommended that I run cat 5 & coax to 3 or 4 locations in each room to allow for additional uses down the line. I understand that this is because inevitable furniture will be moved and additional equipment will be needed.. e.g. a bedroom becomes a study.. Would you recommend this approach too if I used your modified cable?

        And can you please tell me how your recommended British Home Network cable differs from just running cat5E & coax (apart from advantages of one less wire)?

        I am not very technically proficient so I want to run all the cable i'll ever need, wire to a patch panel (or a similarly neat cable box) and then hopefully just plug everything in when I have saved enough for an off-the-shelf AV system. So, would the modified cat5e cable be compatible with all MCU AV type systems such as OPUS / NUVO?

        Thanks very much in advance.

        Comment

        • pocky
          Automated Home Jr Member
          • Oct 2007
          • 19

          #5
          It is always recommended to have more location in a room so that you can move furniture and change usage in the future.

          However, with the HomeNet System you use only one cable and one socket. If you install Cat5 and coax you are limiting usage. A coax will only be good for TV/video and you can't connect speakers, a phone or a PC to it - not even in the future (well, maybe one day with buying active adapters for $$$$) Similar applies to Cat5e, why putting a cable in that can't carry native SAT/video/CATV signals if you can put one cable in that can do???

          Advantage of the cable is versatility and capability to do more than Cat5 (even Cat7) and coax can do.

          Just check the site and send an email with your questions

          Comment

          • TimH
            Automated Home Legend
            • Feb 2004
            • 509

            #6
            Originally posted by pocky View Post
            It is always recommended to have more location in a room so that you can move furniture and change usage in the future.
            I've had my TV in all of the 5 locations I wired to in the lounge.. I'm not sure if that was actually an advantage though...

            Originally posted by pocky View Post
            However, with the HomeNet System you use only one cable and one socket. If you install Cat5 and coax you are limiting usage. A coax will only be good for TV/video and you can't connect speakers, a phone or a PC to it - not even in the future (well, maybe one day with buying active adapters for $$$$) Similar applies to Cat5e, why putting a cable in that can't carry native SAT/video/CATV signals if you can put one cable in that can do???
            Just a clarification - Cat5e can carry native video signals right up to full HD resolutions with the appropriate adaptors. Many of the "media extender" boxes are Ethernet anyway, and Cat5e is still fine for Gigabit ethernet

            I agree that coax is not quite as versatile, although there is still life in it yet.

            I think it depends on what type of systems architecture you want.
            If you like the sleek modern looks and have all of your source equipment hidden away, there's little/no need to be able to send raw satellite feeds around the house, just to the equipment cupboard. What's more important (IMHO) is to be able to connect those sources to the TVs & speakers etc. in the various rooms.

            Maybe it just comes down to personal preference; some people do like or don't mind looking at the source boxes, I prefer them out of the way.

            The great advantages of Cat5 are that it is a true, universal standard, and that it already has a huge installed base in offices etc. Yes there are newer technologies coming along, but I wouldn't even begin to suggest that cat5 is a dying technology...

            Cheers,

            Tim.
            My Flickr Photos

            Comment

            • pocky
              Automated Home Jr Member
              • Oct 2007
              • 19

              #7
              Originally posted by TimH View Post
              Just a clarification - Cat5e can carry native video signals right up to full HD resolutions with the appropriate adaptors.
              Exactly what I said, with adapters that cost money, not native sat signal, not native video or even up to full HD. Cat5 does only 250MHz and Cat6 550MHz and even UHF (RTE or BBC) has up to 862MHz
              Originally posted by TimH View Post
              Many of the "media extender" boxes are Ethernet anyway, and Cat5e is still fine for Gigabit ethernet
              Never denied that, are you sure that TV is going ethernet? Sound is going that way? When and for what costs? flexibility?

              Originally posted by TimH View Post
              I agree that coax is not quite as versatile, although there is still life in it yet.
              Yes, and there is still live in a 30 year old fridge and a 50 year old black and white TV, just like in a 70th car

              Originally posted by TimH View Post
              I think it depends on what type of systems architecture you want.
              If you like the sleek modern looks and have all of your source equipment hidden away, there's little/no need to be able to send raw satellite feeds around the house, just to the equipment cupboard. What's more important (IMHO) is to be able to connect those sources to the TVs & speakers etc. in the various rooms.

              Maybe it just comes down to personal preference; some people do like or don't mind looking at the source boxes, I prefer them out of the way.
              And you know that for the next 60 years? That is the lifespan of your house. Or are you chasing the walls again in 15 or 25 years? If you have a flexible high capacity cable you can put it anytime anywhere.

              Originally posted by TimH View Post
              The great advantages of Cat5 are that it is a true, universal standard, and that it already has a huge installed base in offices etc.
              But we are not talking about offices where you have a limited use (phone & IT), we are talking about residential buildings where you have a large variety of equipment - old and new. And remember, I am not denying the installed based, but the question here is on new installations
              Originally posted by TimH View Post
              Yes there are newer technologies coming along, but I wouldn't even begin to suggest that cat5 is a dying technology...
              Not dying, but developing. Otherwise commercial installations wouldn't go for Cat6+

              It is like any other technology, you don't buy kitchen appliances that are still build the same way as 25 years ago. You insist your car having seat belts, CD-radio, and anti blocking device. No one will accept today an electrician putting in 1940 cabling standards. But yet you are talking about "media extenders" and similar new devices but want to hook it up to 70th industrial standard cable that was never designed for flexible domestic use.

              And all I am talking about is spending an average € 300 to € 500 more for flexibility. You save this money on the extenders you where talking. That is not even the price of a decent LCD TV!!!

              Comment

              • TimH
                Automated Home Legend
                • Feb 2004
                • 509

                #8
                Originally posted by pocky View Post
                And you know that for the next 60 years? That is the lifespan of your house. Or are you chasing the walls again in 15 or 25 years? If you have a flexible high capacity cable you can put it anytime anywhere.
                When I chased-out the walls in my house I buried trunking and put the cable in that, so no, I won't be chasing them out again, but my structured wiring does have the opportunity to evolve

                But whether its Cat5e, or A.N.Other cable, there's still things ahead of us that we can't predict. I'm not saying Cat5e is totally future proof but equally you should be wary of anyone else professing the same about their solution.

                Originally posted by pocky View Post
                But we are not talking about offices where you have a limited use (phone & IT), we are talking about residential buildings where you have a large variety of equipment - old and new. And remember, I am not denying the installed based, but the question here is on new installations
                My point about the installed base was not so much we *should* adopt office technology in our homes per se, but because the boundaries between "office" and "home" equipment are much more blurred now. Just think, it wasn't that many years ago that having networked storage was purely the reserve of the corporate world. Now everybody is churning out hard disks with Ethernet ports.

                The benefit of the current huge installed base of Cat5 & Ethernet, the hurdles for manufacturers to develop products are much lower - there's a greater market place for them to be sold into. And part of the incentive for this is an open standard which connects all the devices together.

                And its not just Ethernet over Cat5 - there have been audio & video products around for ages which use the structure of the Cat5 cable but do not transmit the signals as an IP stream - e.g. the KAT5 modules (www.kat5.tv) or these HDMI via Cat5 baluns: http://www.wordpress-1219309-4387497...over-CAT5.html.

                Originally posted by pocky View Post
                It is like any other technology, you don't buy kitchen appliances that are still build the same way as 25 years ago.
                Sadly no, you can't get the quality of older products

                Originally posted by pocky View Post
                You insist your car having seat belts, CD-radio, and anti blocking device.
                Agreed, but it's still the same internal combustion engine that's moving it along.
                Yes there are new technologies emerging, and they are commerically available, but they are still developing and because there is no clear way forward, there's no real standardisation going on. We've got LPG fill points, hydrogen fill points, electric car charging points etc. The market hasn't shaken down enough to drive forward "the" solution, so we have a collection of solutions more thinly spread out.

                Originally posted by pocky View Post
                No one will accept today an electrician putting in 1940 cabling standards.
                Absolutely not, but that's largely a safety thing, no? Or were you meaning something else?

                Originally posted by pocky View Post
                And all I am talking about is spending an average € 300 to € 500 more for flexibility. You save this money on the extenders you where talking. That is not even the price of a decent LCD TV!!!
                I'm not familiar with the pricing of this cable, can you quote its per metre price, or price per box, for a comparison with Cat5e?

                The quantities people put into their homes varies dramatically, some with modest installs maybe only use one box, whereas others have put in over 7km (yup, 7000m!!) of Cat5. What quantity of cable are we taking for a € 300 to € 500 delta? (which I agree is small )

                The biggest drawback that I see of the proprietary cabling systems is that you're locked into that manufacturer. No matter how great the system is, if they go belly-up you've had it.

                I'm not trying to knock it technically, I haven't seen enough installs to comment on how good or not it is, but its precisely the closed nature of those systems that make me nervous.

                Cheers,

                Tim.
                My Flickr Photos

                Comment

                • iainshaw
                  Automated Home Lurker
                  • Mar 2007
                  • 7

                  #9
                  Another offputting thing is the BritishHomeNet website looks like it was knocked up in FrontPage with liberal use of paint.exe about 5 years ago. Might be capable, looks rubbish. That's not just internet snobbery, the site looks like its creators haven't got a clue what is happening in the wider technical world

                  There are so many ways of doing this stuff very well over industry standard Cat5e or Cat6 cabling I don't see why you'd want to go off-piste.

                  Comment

                  • pocky
                    Automated Home Jr Member
                    • Oct 2007
                    • 19

                    #10
                    Originally posted by TimH View Post
                    My point about the installed base was not so much we *should* adopt office technology in our homes per se, but because the boundaries between "office" and "home" equipment are much more blurred now. Just think, it wasn't that many years ago that having networked storage was purely the reserve of the corporate world. Now everybody is churning out hard disks with Ethernet ports.

                    The benefit of the current huge installed base of Cat5 & Ethernet, the hurdles for manufacturers to develop products are much lower - there's a greater market place for them to be sold into. And part of the incentive for this is an open standard which connects all the devices together.
                    But again, this is IT and not a conventional homes. Agree that the boundaries between home and office are blurred, but we are still talking more about home equipment such as CD players, iPods, VCR, TV, SAT or cable set-to-boxes, HiFi systems and so on. Don't get me wrong, I am an IT guy with about 20 years IT background and can see where technology is going but it will be a long road to a fully integration. And until then we will keep our "old" entertainment equipment,

                    Originally posted by TimH View Post
                    And its not just Ethernet over Cat5 - there have been audio & video products around for ages which use the structure of the Cat5 cable but do not transmit the signals as an IP stream - e.g. the KAT5 modules (www.kat5.tv) or these HDMI via Cat5 baluns: http://www.wordpress-1219309-4387497...over-CAT5.html.
                    But this is exactly what I am talking about, you have to buy additional equipment - which is another source for faults - to carry certain signals over Cat5.
                    Originally posted by TimH View Post
                    Agreed, but it's still the same internal combustion engine that's moving it along.
                    yes and no. Lets compare this to a structured home cabling.
                    The manufacturing and technology of the engine was refined but the basic of the combusting engine is the same, that also applies to the cabling. It is still twisted pair copper cable. One is "low engineered" industrial standard and the other is a "high engineered" multimedia product. So you can do whatever you can do on Cat5 but you can also pass more native signal.

                    Originally posted by TimH View Post
                    Yes there are new technologies emerging, and they are commerically available, but they are still developing and because there is no clear way forward, there's no real standardisation going on. We've got LPG fill points, hydrogen fill points, electric car charging points etc. The market hasn't shaken down enough to drive forward "the" solution, so we have a collection of solutions more thinly spread out.
                    Yes, because we will have diversity in the future because we finally got "our a.. up" Same applies to the cable, a lot of options.
                    Originally posted by TimH View Post
                    Absolutely not, but that's largely a safety thing, no? Or were you meaning something else?
                    Yes, two sockets and one light switch per room
                    Originally posted by TimH View Post
                    I'm not familiar with the pricing of this cable, can you quote its per metre price, or price per box, for a comparison with Cat5e?
                    The hardware for a three bedroom house including central unit and connection cable will be around € 1300 net.

                    Originally posted by TimH View Post
                    The quantities people put into their homes varies dramatically, some with modest installs maybe only use one box, whereas others have put in over 7km (yup, 7000m!!) of Cat5. What quantity of cable are we taking for a € 300 to € 500 delta? (which I agree is small )
                    this is the difference to a Cat5 cabling of a average three bedroom house

                    Originally posted by TimH View Post
                    The biggest drawback that I see of the proprietary cabling systems is that you're locked into that manufacturer. No matter how great the system is, if they go belly-up you've had it.
                    correct, one of the manufacture is in business since 1919 and part of one of the world largest cable manufacturer and the second company involved is in business for more than 20 years now with an installed base of more than 10000 houses so there is no big danger for a belly-up

                    Originally posted by TimH View Post
                    I'm not trying to knock it technically, I haven't seen enough installs to comment on how good or not it is, but its precisely the closed nature of those systems that make me nervous.
                    understand, one of the biggest problem is, that they where not able to get Bill Gates for marketing - but working on it

                    Comment

                    • pocky
                      Automated Home Jr Member
                      • Oct 2007
                      • 19

                      #11
                      Originally posted by iainshaw View Post
                      Another offputting thing is the BritishHomeNet website looks like it was knocked up in FrontPage with liberal use of paint.exe about 5 years ago. Might be capable, looks rubbish. That's not just internet snobbery,
                      No, it proofs that you are arrogant.
                      Originally posted by iainshaw View Post
                      the site looks like its creators haven't got a clue what is happening in the wider technical world
                      Or maybe concentrating on the primary product and not the "nice package"

                      Originally posted by iainshaw View Post
                      There are so many ways of doing this stuff very well over industry standard Cat5e or Cat6 cabling I don't see why you'd want to go off-piste.
                      Yes, and again for you: You need additional device that cost extra money and are an extra area for faults to condition native signal to run over it ......

                      Or are you denying this?????

                      Comment

                      • iainshaw
                        Automated Home Lurker
                        • Mar 2007
                        • 7

                        #12
                        I'm not denying that using Cat5e or Cat6 means using additional hardware. There are lots of people making them.

                        Looking at the BritishHomeNet site, the connectors appear to be equivalent pieces of kit. Not particularly expensive but obviously you need a specific connector for a composite video connector or a scart connector. Couldn't see any HDMI or component but maybe they exist. If they don't then it means the system has limited application right now.

                        Arrogance? Maybe. I'm making a serious point about credibility. If people want a system to achieve widespread acceptance then it has to look like it has a chance. That's a basic but important thing to do. If I'm going to buy into a proprietary system I need confidence that it's well backed, well funded and it's going to be around for a long time. Paypal shopping carts and animated gifs don't give me that confidence.

                        Comment

                        • pocky
                          Automated Home Jr Member
                          • Oct 2007
                          • 19

                          #13
                          Originally posted by iainshaw View Post
                          I'm not denying that using Cat5e or Cat6 means using additional hardware. There are lots of people making them.

                          Looking at the BritishHomeNet site, the connectors appear to be equivalent pieces of kit. Not particularly expensive but obviously you need a specific connector for a composite video connector or a scart connector. Couldn't see any HDMI or component but maybe they exist. If they don't then it means the system has limited application right now.
                          Every system has limited application. We are not denying this but we are looking at using as much native signal as possible.

                          Don't forget that HDMI uses about 15 or 17 wires. So no 8 wire twisted pair cable can carry this without electronic adapters/converters. So HDMI to RJ45 converters need to be used. However manufacturer is working on one with the MMC on it.

                          Originally posted by iainshaw View Post
                          Arrogance? Maybe. I'm making a serious point about credibility. If people want a system to achieve widespread acceptance then it has to look like it has a chance. That's a basic but important thing to do.
                          point taken, but remember the dot-com bust? That was "credibility" build up over the net and has prove to a big eyewash and a failure.

                          If the product itself can not build confidence itself by its functionality than you are better off not to touch it.
                          Originally posted by iainshaw View Post
                          If I'm going to buy into a proprietary system I need confidence that it's well backed, well funded and it's going to be around for a long time.
                          Lets face it, that has nothing to do with a website and even a "good" website can't provide that. If a web space costs € 25 per year that is no proof! The background is important. The manufacterer of the product is important.
                          Originally posted by iainshaw View Post
                          Paypal shopping carts and animated gifs don't give me that confidence.
                          The paypal shopping cart is a test to find out if there is any interest at all in an online shop.

                          And to the animated gif, that is an "under construction" gif as you know and only proofs the company has spirits and is not waisting money on high gloss presence but spends its money on the product and therefore customer advantage

                          Comment

                          • Otto-Mate
                            Founder
                            • Jan 2004
                            • 882

                            #14
                            Hi Pocky

                            I have to agree with Ian, the site does look amateur.

                            Whether we like it or not, so much relies on peoples perception these days, and a visitor will judge you and your products within the first few seconds of visiting your site. No matter how good the system is, a site like that will put some people off.

                            This isn't meant as a personal attack - it's some advice from the friends here on Automated Home Forums.

                            Thanks

                            M.
                            Editor AutomatedHome.co.uk


                            www.facebook.com/AutomatedHomeUK
                            www.twitter.com/ottomate
                            www.instagram.com/automatedhome/

                            Comment

                            • iainshaw
                              Automated Home Lurker
                              • Mar 2007
                              • 7

                              #15
                              Not meant to be personal

                              Let me add it wasn't meant to be a personal attack either. When I wrote it I hadn't looked at the contact page and hadn't made the personal connection.

                              so no offense meant. And yes I can be an arrogant swine sometimes

                              Comment

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