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Thread: Water Controls

  1. #11
    Automated Home Jr Member
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    Hmmmm,
    I was mainly concerned with the bath as regards automated filling, using http://www.screwfix.com/prods/98295/...ll-Wall-Valves style of spout but still retaining my existing taps to allow for manual reversion if needs be.The auto fill function would mainly be for setting it off remotely from the lounge/garden/M25 sort of thing.

    The plug is a pop up affair that i can just pop a solenoid onto.

    Kitchen wise I was just thinking of a kettle filler, perhaps with 4 different buttons for 2/4/6/8 cups.

    I wasn't going to bother with the kitchen sink as I rarely find myself driving home thinking that it'd be nice to walk in the door and get straight on with the washing up!!


    Ideas Ideas.....

  2. #12
    Automated Home Legend chris_j_hunter's Avatar
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    >Ideas Ideas.....

    yep ... we were aiming to have the water fully automated, with no taps & no reversion ... not sure what sensors to use, though - IR , or IR + pressure-pad, or maybe some sort of knee switch, or beam, or possibly voice + IR or pressure-pad ... don't want it flooding the place !

    Not sure have to have water outlets right next to basins & sinks, always ... for filling pans & buckets, it might work to have a pressure-pad, or other presence-sensor (rest the pan down, water flows, when there's enough, lift the pan, water stops) ... or for washing hands (take some soap, water flows for so long) ...

    'quite like the idea of a Quooker boiling water dispenser (spray) in the kitchen, but with an automated tap, giving a cup at a time, or maybe using a four-button module to give four options ...

    as you said, ideas, ideas !

  3. #13
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    Chris et al....

    Have had response from Betavalve, email copied below....

    "Dear Mr Wright

    I can offer the Following @
    1. RF00175BC 44.43 each
    2. RF00175BB 42.84 each
    3. 1175BB 23.46 each
    4. 6115BB 17.03 each

    Please confirm electrical output required . I can offer less 25 % off the above prices for X 10 pieces .

    Regards

    Mohammed Nawaz "


    data sheet for 1 & 2 HERE

    and for 3 & 4 HERE

    pricing not actually that bad I don't think?

    Chris, it sounds like you want enough to get the 25% discount on your own but if anyone wants less than ten then maybe we could arrange a group buy to get the discount?

    Cheers

    Daz

  4. #14
    Automated Home Legend chris_j_hunter's Avatar
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    >1. RF00175BC 44.43 each
    >2. RF00175BB 42.84 each
    >3. 1175BB 23.46 each
    >4. 6115BB 17.03 each

    OK, thanks, not too bad ... the first two seem to have 12 & 24V AC & DC, 110 230 & 240VAC power options ... the last two need 6VDC ... the last three latch, the first doesn't ... the first measure, the last two don't ...

    am inclined to prefer mains power - easier, no special power supplies ...

    pulses ... I guess it's down to Idratek & what are the settable parameters for the modules (QRI QRH ODI DIO and ... there may be others) ... I know time-frames are, but are number of pulses, too ? 'cos would need that, I think, if measured quantities are to be dispensed !

  5. #15
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    Yeah I just asked for prices on a few of them that covered all options of latching/voltage etc... just so we could get an idea of the ballpark we were in.

    I was thinking 24V and using the PSU-002 as I'll be having one to run the RVA's and so the power will be available in each room anyway.

    Not sure on the pulse counts, needs research....

  6. #16
    Automated Home Legend chris_j_hunter's Avatar
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    >pulse count ...

    the other issue, maybe, is how to connect the Idratek module to these valves ... ie: how long can the cable be, and what type ?? ... would be handy if one module could control several taps (in one room, with cable runs up to three metres, say) ... our bathrooms would have maybe five valves to be controlled, and maybe eight in one case (which doubles as a laundry room), plus there's the kitchen ...

    it's tempting to use valves without sensors in some places, to save costs, though it might lose some HA options, so not sure !

  7. #17
    Automated Home Legend Karam's Avatar
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    I should imagine a timed pulse should be sufficient if no feedback sensing is used. Both Cortex and Reflex implement a timed pulse feature where the user can set the duration to within sub second resolution if desired.

    If feedback is required then I'm sure it'll be possible to accomodate this in one way or another or if necessary create a specific object to handle it as its reasonably generic.

    Regarding powering of valves I think the 24V option + QRIs would probably be the way to do it (don't like 230V near water - even 24 might need some consideration, but 6 not). I haven't seen the valve specs. but you'd have to look at current consumption to work out how many could be strung on to one supply and also whether, like the RVAs, several could be hung on to one CAT5 cable (say) with switched power being at other end. I can't imagine any problem with 3 meters. Only thing I'd recommend with solenoids is fit suppressor at solenoid end.

    Karam
    IDRATEK LTD

  8. #18
    Automated Home Legend chris_j_hunter's Avatar
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    timed pulse could be good - just need valves, not valves with sensors ... less expensive & less to go wrong ... OTH, with pressure variations, on the water side of things, due to mains variations or other usages in the house, the timing could be invalidated ... so, I think, my feeling is that feedback must be necessary ...

    'bit like X-10, no feedback is fine if things go as expected ... but how good is X-10, in-practice ... not good-enough !

    so, do we go buy all those valves, with sensors ... can / will Idratek do the necessary ... ??

  9. #19
    Automated Home Legend Karam's Avatar
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    Looking at the datasheets for the Betavalve units it would seem that the pulse rate (pulses/litre) depends non linearly on flow rate (litres/minute). Also there is a fair size tolerance band at lower flow rates. It may be possible to use the graph to linearise the data (if the graph is accurate rather than just an indicator) but obviously not much can be done about stated tolerance other than try operating at high flow rates.

    In theory an onsite calibration factor can be used to minimise the tolerance uncertainty at usual pressure conditions (ie. at a given flow rate) and then if pressure (and hence flow rate) changes do occur it may be possible to detect and use the change in pulse rate to work out an approximate correction.

    Would it be possible to do this with IDRATEK hardware/software? I think so but probably would consider either enhancing the existing pulse counting firmware or perhaps dedicate a digital I/O unit to the task. Not certain yet on the task distribution between Cortex and hardware but I'm pretty certain a new Cortex object or sub object would be required.

    Is it worth doing this? I don't personally know since I have no data about the accuracy of the non feedback methods in practice - though I'm told that these are widely used. If anyone has any such information to hand or has time to research it then we'd be pleased to learn.

    Otherwise, to answer you're original question, we always like a challenge ;-) so probably try to do it anyway even if small number of requests. But, unless we get a deluge of requests, timing will be at the mercy of other priorities.

    Karam
    IDRATEK LTD

  10. #20
    Automated Home Legend chris_j_hunter's Avatar
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    thanks, quite understand the problem - ie: your priorities conundrums !

    'thought I'd try some sums ... looking at the datasheet, linearity starts at about 7 litres/minute, about 120ml/sec, and maybe reasonable linearity starts at about 3 litres/minute, about 50 ml/sec ... a cup or glass holds about 250ml, a breakfast-cup about 330ml ... filling one in one or two seconds sounds about right ... ie: we could think in-terms of 10 litres/minute, about 165ml/sec, as being good for filling small things (no surprise, maybe, 'cos probably that's what these valves are mostly used-for) ... at which rate a bucket might take 90 seconds to conveniently-fill (ie: not to the brim), which might be OK (if automatic, 'though might be tempted to use two valves), and a bath (assuming 1.5m x 0.5m x 0.25+m = say 200 litres) might take 20 minutes (could still be OK, if automatic, especially as likely to be quiet, 'though again might be tempted to use more than one valve) ... ie: we probably are talking being always in the near-linear range, at about 600 pulses per litre ... ie: about 1.5 seconds & 150 pulses per cup / 90 seconds & 900 pulses per bucket / 20 minutes & 12000 pulses per bath

    might want something less, maybe 5 litres/min', for washing hands, but then we wouldn't be so fussy about accuracy ... or maybe it could come at 10 litres/minute in one-second pulses ... ?

    using quad-button module, might have one button for hand-wash, another for a cup, another for a bucket ... or whatever ...

    anyway, how to measure the doses ? Well ... digital input modules can count within time-frames ... timeframes of a tenth of a second would be about 15ml per 'frame, which (assuming that's also a measure of the accuracy of delivery) might be OK ... depends, obviously, on how fast commands can be processed by Cortex & how fast the signals get-around on Idranet ... etc. I'm assuming, I think, the short timeframes would not be the norm - ie: they would be activated only given appropriate presence !

    Bottom-line, I guess, is that I'm thinking maybe software approach (user-macro, even) could be an OK approach here - but would it ?? !!
    Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 26th January 2008 at 12:28 PM. Reason: clarity !

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