Idratek/IDRANet and Linux

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  • qbatqbat
    Automated Home Jr Member
    • Jan 2008
    • 10

    Idratek/IDRANet and Linux

    Hi,

    I'll soon be moving into a new property and I'm planning to wire up Idratek's products for various functions in the house.

    I'd ideally like to control everything from a Linux box though, is information available on the IdraNet protocol or is all the complex stuff handled by the PCD-001/PCA-001 module and will I be able to run Cortex on a Windows PC initially to obtain the data bytes used for events and then simply send/listen to these on the serial port from Linux - or may they change over time?

    I'm not talking about doing anything complex as far as the protocol is concerned, just listening to and sending events.

    The other option I guess is to connect a Idratek input/output module to a PC relay board and link the modules with Windows/Cortex and Reflex initially but that seems a bit stupid!

    Do other companies produce similar products (control over a low power cat5 wired network rather than a C-Bus type setup) - I can't find any others other than Wireless (prefer not) or X10 (not reliable enough after past experience).

    Many thanks.
  • Paul_B
    Automated Home Legend
    • Jul 2006
    • 608

    #2
    I'd think that would be a massive task as Cortex is written for Windows in Delphi I believe. If you must run Linux then I be looking for a piece of virtualisation software to allow Windows XP to run on Linux and let Cortex run from there.

    Paul

    Comment

    • chris_j_hunter
      Automated Home Legend
      • Dec 2007
      • 1713

      #3
      besides Idratek & C-Bus, there's the Italian Dupline system, which could be worth a look !

      if you really want Linux & Cortex, one option might be to get a Mac with Parallels or the other one (name escapes me, sorry, begins with V), and run OSX & Linux & XP all at once ... this would not be virtual, but real ... only Cortex won't work without RS232, and Mac ain't had that for years ... so would have to wait for Idratek to go with USB ...
      Our self-build - going further with HA...

      Comment

      • Gumby
        Moderator
        • May 2004
        • 437

        #4
        Originally posted by Paul_B View Post
        I'd think that would be a massive task as Cortex is written for Windows in Delphi I believe. If you must run Linux then I be looking for a piece of virtualisation software to allow Windows XP to run on Linux and let Cortex run from there.

        Paul
        But the serial port for the PCA/PCD has to be native, so I doubt a virtualised Windows + Cortex would work.

        May be when a USB version of the PCA/PCD appears ...
        ----------------------
        www.gumbrell.com

        Comment

        • jpdw
          Automated Home Guru
          • Oct 2007
          • 169

          #5
          I'm more a Linux user, maybe like you. I've been "trying out" some Idratek bits for a couple of months before building it up further.

          I originally started from the idea of just wanting to use Idranet & Reflex's - but after using Cortex for a while I've realised that it adds SO much more to the "system". NOW my intention is to build a dedicted machine for it, using a low-consumption mini-itx platform, then hide the box away somewhere and access it from my usual (linux) workstation via RDP - ie the cortex machine becomes just an appliance not a PC/workstation.

          When I build the mini-itx platform my first attempt will be to install linux first (either fedora or ubuntu -- simply what I know best) then use vmware server to attempt running Cortex on a virtual winxp. That way I can also use the linux host platform as my home server, and retire my current old mini-itx (which is too slow to host both). If virtualisation doesn't work then I'll switch around with XP as host & linux as the VM.

          How much you need to interface would depend on what you want to do? Cortex has a webserver and this may give you some means to interface via web calls -- something I want to try but haven't had the time/setup yet to do.
          Jon

          Comment

          • Paul_B
            Automated Home Legend
            • Jul 2006
            • 608

            #6
            David,

            You are quite correct about the serial port but the virtualisation I was thinking of was VMWare (not that this would be available for most users). I am pretty sure from the VMWare course that it supports virtualisation of com ports to allow for things like dongles.

            Paul

            Comment

            • jpdw
              Automated Home Guru
              • Oct 2007
              • 169

              #7
              Originally posted by Paul_B View Post
              David,

              You are quite correct about the serial port but the virtualisation I was thinking of was VMWare (not that this would be available for most users). I am pretty sure from the VMWare course that it supports virtualisation of com ports to allow for things like dongles.

              Paul
              Last time I look (last week) VMWare Server specification says it includes virtualising serial ports ---IIRC it allows pass through (ie what you'd need for cortex) or piping a file on the host to the VM's serial.

              Originally posted by Paul_B View Post
              (not that this would be available for most users)
              why not? VMWare Server is freely downloadable.
              Jon

              Comment

              • Gumby
                Moderator
                • May 2004
                • 437

                #8
                Originally posted by qbatqbat View Post
                Hi,
                I'll soon be moving into a new property and I'm planning to wire up Idratek's products for various functions in the house.
                Welcome, congratulations and an excellent choice.

                Originally posted by qbatqbat View Post
                I'd ideally like to control everything from a Linux box though, is information available on the IdraNet protocol or is all the complex stuff handled by the PCD-001/PCA-001 module and will I be able to run Cortex on a Windows PC initially to obtain the data bytes used for events and then simply send/listen to these on the serial port from Linux - or may they change over time?

                I'm not talking about doing anything complex as far as the protocol is concerned, just listening to and sending events.
                Several questions here, so several answers in a different order ...

                With the Idratek product you have modules which sit on the IdraNet and talk in Reflex packets. You can create Reflex programs which are distributed across all modules to effect one form of control scheme. In addition to that, using a PCA/PCD you can interface a PC to the Idranet, so the PCA/PCD is translating Idranet bus protocol into RS-232, but still spitting out most of the packet contents - some headers may be removed, but these are handled by the PCA/PCD, so it doesn't matter. You can then run Cortex on the PC, which provides a basic Reflex programming capability to get Reflex programs into modules, but more importantly provides a higher level of functionality and integration to other systems (eg Skype, Telephony, CCTV, Squeeze Boxes, email, web etc) together with an animated GUI so that you can see what's going on.

                When I first discussed the Idratek system with Idratek some years ago they indicated that the protocol at the Reflex level (ie at the PCD/PCA serial port) would be documented and available. This was important to me and I have been given information on request, but it does not seem to be published on their website. I think all Idratek users will agree that they are very helpful in resolving queries.

                It is possible to install a program to watch what Cortex sends/receives to the PCA/PCD. I used Advanced Serial Port Monitor from Agg Software. It is also possible to use a second PCD as a bus monitor, although I I got distracted by real life before I got very far with this.

                The packets are more sophisticated than, for example, X-10, and I doubt simple replay would work. Reverse engineering is feasible, but would be hard work, far easier to get hold of the Idratek documents - so perhaps a question for Karam to clarify Idratek's position on this.

                It then would be possible to treat the Idranet simplistically as a network of sensors and actuators and handle events on your Linux box. I have to say that it seems the worst of both worlds to me, a lot of programming to get a simplistic control scheme with the attendant costs of running a Linux box 24/7.

                So there is a degree of do-ability, but it's a shed load of work to avoid a Windows box and get to the level of automation that Cortex provides. Perhaps you can clarify what your reservations about using Windows are, there may be a lateral approach.

                For example, one approach, foregoing the high level features of Cortex, might be to create a pure Reflex control scheme, which only needs a Windows PC to run Cortex to set up the program, which might be handled using a dual-boot setup. Once the Reflex program is loaded into the network the PC can be disconnected.

                Originally posted by qbatqbat View Post
                The other option I guess is to connect a Idratek input/output module to a PC relay board and link the modules with Windows/Cortex and Reflex initially but that seems a bit stupid!
                If i understand the concept then I agree that it appears a bit stupid.

                Originally posted by qbatqbat View Post
                Do other companies produce similar products (control over a low power cat5 wired network rather than a C-Bus type setup) - I can't find any others other than Wireless (prefer not) or X10 (not reliable enough after past experience).
                Agree on X-10. Chris did an extensive survey of alternatives and is best placed to comment. I guess I don't understand why you exclude C-Bus from low power wired Cat-5, there is also EIB which I think uses something similar to Cat-5, and maybe even Cat-5. It's difficult to beat Idratek for functionality vs price IMHO though.
                ----------------------
                www.gumbrell.com

                Comment

                • Gumby
                  Moderator
                  • May 2004
                  • 437

                  #9
                  It would certainly be an intriguing experiment. There may be other lossage - I'm guessing a hardware CCTV card might not virtualise either. YMMV.

                  Don't get me wrong, I'd love a Linux based Cortex. Sorry Chris, yes that was Linux, not OSX
                  ----------------------
                  www.gumbrell.com

                  Comment

                  • Paul_B
                    Automated Home Legend
                    • Jul 2006
                    • 608

                    #10
                    jpdw,

                    Good point I was thinking ESX but you are correct that VMWare Server (previously GSX I believe) is freely downloadable and will run on Windows or Linux.

                    Paul

                    Comment

                    • chris_j_hunter
                      Automated Home Legend
                      • Dec 2007
                      • 1713

                      #11
                      >extensive survey ...

                      I did look at several seriously - EIB / KNX (was tops, until David introduced me to Idratek), and Dupline, and Comfort, X-10, Nice, and C-Bus, which some use with HomeSeer, etc, and some others ... bottom of the list was X-10, Comfort was good but limited, Nice was nice but very limited, Dupline was interesting, C-Bus was good, but expensive, EIB / KNX was better, but similarly expensive, and rather too in-accessible ... Idratek was tops for functionality (by a mile, once I saw the light, which David & his blog helped with a lot), and also for affordability ... the big downside with Idratek was that it needed Windows (as did the others), and so would need some very careful ring-fencing, and that it depended on RS232 ... both being live-able with, given David's stable experience of it, that it could run on a more-or-less dedicated low-power Mini-ITX, and that David had found he could manage it from a Mac using Remote Desktop ... it's also a bit weak on the AV & display side of things, but then so's eveything else, particularly if real HD is required ... we'll probably be using the Mac to do that side of things, 'though details are a WIP ...
                      Our self-build - going further with HA...

                      Comment

                      • qbatqbat
                        Automated Home Jr Member
                        • Jan 2008
                        • 10

                        #12
                        Many thanks for all the info, plenty to think about!

                        The main reasons for wanting Linux is because my (real) job involves a lot of Linux programming and scripting so I wouldn't have to spend time and money learning MS stuff. Also we already have a Linux box on 24/7, and this move is turning out to be very expensive and I'm trying to find ways of spending a bit less money :-)

                        I may just buy a couple of Idratek modules and play around with a couple of your suggestions including VMWare - but maybe not by spending money a Mac even though I'd like one (you wouldn't have found me saying that before OS/X!)

                        It would be great if Idratek did document the protocol, I'd certainly be interested in getting involved in a project to create a Linux(/BSD/OSX) API.

                        "I guess I don't understand why you exclude C-Bus from low power wired Cat-5"

                        Sorry, what I should have said was (I may have this wrong) that although the C-Bus itself communicates like that all the modules I can find all seem to control the mains voltage at the DIN rail so need direct mains wiring to there. We are moving into a newly built house so it's going to be much easier cutting holes around the place doing low voltage wiring than safely doing mains wiring in line with regs. Also, my wife is likley to be happier with temporary holes rather than me removing whole sheets of plasterboard and demonstrating my bad plastering skills :-)

                        ... And I understand creating any new mains circuits is now going to cost me due to having to have a Part P inspection and the only way to avoid it is to change my job and work for a Part P approved firm(?!) Has anybody had any experience with Part P and home automation by the way and is it more costly if somebody comes out to inspect and you have to spend an hour explaining what C-Bus etc is?

                        Comment

                        • jpdw
                          Automated Home Guru
                          • Oct 2007
                          • 169

                          #13
                          Originally posted by qbatqbat View Post
                          I may just buy a couple of Idratek modules and play around with a couple of your suggestions including VMWare - but maybe not by spending money a Mac even though I'd like one (you wouldn't have found me saying that before OS/X!)
                          This is the approach I have taken, buying a 'starter kit' in November. It's a £200 "investment" which seems to be less than most other alternatives. I'd recommend this -- have a try & see what you think. The starter pack also has a 30-day full Cortex licence (after the 30 day you can still use it to reflex "program" the devices). As reflex level setup runs fine without Cortex, you dont need to invest a always-on windows PC initially - just a dual boot (or maybe VM partition) would probably be OK.

                          Originally posted by qbatqbat View Post
                          The main reasons for wanting Linux is because my (real) job involves a lot of Linux programming and scripting so I wouldn't have to spend time and money learning MS stuff. Also we already have a Linux box on 24/7, and this move is turning out to be very expensive and I'm trying to find ways of spending a bit less money :-)
                          You might find cortex supports a lot of what you'd like to do anyway, so reducing the amount you want to develop & script. If you have specific requirements, pop an email to idratek and I'm sure they'll answer your questions. Or of course post on here.

                          Originally posted by qbatqbat View Post
                          ... And I understand creating any new mains circuits is now going to cost me due to having to have a Part P inspection and the only way to avoid it is to change my job and work for a Part P approved firm(?!) Has anybody had any experience with Part P and home automation by the way and is it more costly if somebody comes out to inspect and you have to spend an hour explaining what C-Bus etc is?
                          A whole different can of worms...

                          My key aim is to avoid notifiable work where possible. Where anything is notifiable, to lump it in one go and consider getting a pro in (or pay LABC and do it myself, getting them to sign off afterwards)

                          To avoiding work being notifiable, I am trying to avoid needing *NEW* circuits. Arguably idratek suface mount units are "replacements" of existing light switches or (in the case of PIR & Temp modules) extra low voltage for signalling (signalling & data is listed as non-notifiable in most locations). I'm uncertain if a DIN-rail mounted relay or dimmer unit is classed as a "fixed appliance" which could make it notifiable (if it's in the CU then definately notifiable anyway).

                          NOTE - the above is based on my current understanding. My advice is to do some reading up yourself. Scope of Part P notification is a frequently debated issue on the forums at www.diynot.com, so that would be a good place to visit occasionally and has links to the official docs & regs.

                          Originally posted by qbatqbat View Post
                          you have to spend an hour explaining what C-Bus etc is?
                          A scenario I envisage when we have our boiler changed in a couple of months. My intention is to fix the relay unit ready (which will drive the heating zone valves) then explain to the spark (if needed) that it's effectively just a bunch of 2-wire volt-free thermostats. I'll also provide 4 little switches so he can toggle the relays to test - just like waggling the knob on a stat - without having to even start explaining Cortex....
                          Last edited by jpdw; 24 January 2008, 08:31 PM.
                          Jon

                          Comment

                          • Gumby
                            Moderator
                            • May 2004
                            • 437

                            #14
                            Originally posted by qbatqbat View Post
                            Hi,

                            .

                            "I guess I don't understand why you exclude C-Bus from low power wired Cat-5"

                            Sorry, what I should have said was (I may have this wrong) that although the C-Bus itself communicates like that all the modules I can find all seem to control the mains voltage at the DIN rail so need direct mains wiring to there. We are moving into a newly built house so it's going to be much easier cutting holes around the place doing low voltage wiring than safely doing mains wiring in line with regs. Also, my wife is likley to be happier with temporary holes rather than me removing whole sheets of plasterboard and demonstrating my bad plastering skills :-)

                            ... And I understand creating any new mains circuits is now going to cost me due to having to have a Part P inspection and the only way to avoid it is to change my job and work for a Part P approved firm(?!) Has anybody had any experience with Part P and home automation by the way and is it more costly if somebody comes out to inspect and you have to spend an hour explaining what C-Bus etc is?
                            Well - that certainly is an advantage to the Idratek approach in a retrofit. Since it's a modern house I assume that the walls are something like dot and dab so you don't need to chase to get the Cat5 into the switch ?

                            My understanding with Part P is that you pay a notification fee to the LABC and they have to get it inspected at their cost, which does not include charging you extra 'cos the bloke doesn't understand it. So the fee may not be that painful, especially if you plan it carefully and lump the notifible stuff in one hit.
                            ----------------------
                            www.gumbrell.com

                            Comment

                            • MrFluffy
                              Automated Home Sr Member
                              • Aug 2005
                              • 79

                              #15
                              Im looking at this thread with interest, Idratek sounds very interesting from a technical point of view, but there is absolutely no way whatsoever I would entertain a system based on a windows controller. From my industrial and commercial experiences, microsoft products should play no part in anything expected to exhibit stability (ask LSE...) Ive also got some experience of vmware, and I would much much prefer to go with a native install rather than have their ip stack etc interfering with what is going on.

                              A *nix deployment would sit in the rack, be on industrial hardware, attach to the terminal server for disaster recovery scenarios, plug onto the tape backup system and a myriad of other features.
                              Has anybody contacted idratek to see if specifications on the structure of the packets etc is available to allow some reverse engineering?
                              A FUSE (its a software package) module would be heaven. Like x10 and a load of scripting, but works.

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