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  • chris_j_hunter
    Automated Home Legend
    • Dec 2007
    • 1713

    xPl

    Mark's pod-cast with Ian & Mal was interesting ... they mentioned Idratek, too ... said there might be too much overlap ... seems to me, though, there might be more to be gained by co-operating ... ie: xPL might be a route to increasing the range (in terms of devices it can interface with) of Idratek ...

    'not sure how xAP & xPL relate ... would both be good ?
    Our self-build - going further with HA...
  • Gumby
    Moderator
    • May 2004
    • 437

    #2
    My take on this (podcast) is a little different. I thought that xPL was intended to be a glue protocol, a sort of esperanto for HA, allowing a control program like Cortex to talk to other sensors and actuators. And with support available in various devices (like my weather station) it held out a lot of promise.

    However, Cortex xPL support was to make the Idranet "exposed" to an external controller, so that the Idranet devices appear as actuators and controllers to an external xPL controller. This means that you could not use Cortex to integrate (most) external devices that could talk xPL, instead having to perform your integration in the external HAL controller.

    In other words, I decided the Cortex xPL support was the inverse of what I would want.

    And this is why I think the xPL project perceive a conflict, because they seem to be focused on the controller part rather than the protocol. There is a conflict there, certainly I found that it was more work to get stuff working in the HAL controller than in Cortex, and I wanted to keep my logic in one place. Which is why I shelved using it If you want to tinker with your own control strategies then it is useful to have it there, but I just wanted to get stuff working with the minimum of pain.

    I haven't had a chance to play with the xAP support yet, I'm not sure whether the situation is the same or not.

    As for the chance of establishing an open HA protocol against the various business models and vested interests, that is a different discussion
    ----------------------
    www.gumbrell.com

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    • chris_j_hunter
      Automated Home Legend
      • Dec 2007
      • 1713

      #3
      aha ... that explains ... I couldn't understand how they saw a conflict, now do !
      Our self-build - going further with HA...

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      • Kevin
        Moderator
        • Jan 2004
        • 558

        #4
        Originally posted by chris_j_hunter View Post
        'not sure how xAP & xPL relate ... would both be good ?
        Originally posted by Gumby View Post

        I haven't had a chance to play with the xAP support yet, I'm not sure whether the situation is the same or not.
        I think you will be really impressed with the xAP integration within Cortex. Vivian has done a great job in the implementation and a lot of time was spent ensuring it's fully featured. And yes...the support is fully bi-directional allowing IdraNet devices to report status and be controlled from xAP , and also xAP devices can be created in Cortex that appear just like IdraNet devices :-). All updates happen in realtime and the logging and graphing features within Cortex support these xAP devices.

        In the xAP world we have a slightly different approach (cf xPL) in that we position xAP as the Esperanto or glue both between devices and between controllers . We have spent a lot of time ensuring that you can continue to use your existing home automation software of choice and transparently integrate xAP devices within it , as well as expose the inbuilt devices back to the xAP world. This ensures from an automation perspective that all your devices are accessible to all of your system and provides the most seamless integration without forcing you to enlist a second xAP specific automation engine. Ideally xAP is something that is as invisible as possible but just makes it all work together.

        With this approach we fully support both a distributed intelligence, similar to Reflex, and centralised controller(s) like Cortex so xAP/Idranet are very complimentary in this respect. You could use several different controllers at the same time, should you wish, if so most importantly all devices on you automation system are accessible to all controllers rather than being physically attached to and monopolised by one.

        xAP devices can also be software data sources, carrying richer data like perhaps weather forecasts, TV listings , email etc and these may be attractive ways to expand the depth of data that Cortex has access to in the future. There are for example many digital audio players supported by xAP that could already be integrated into an Idranet system offering transport control and track display on an LCD equipped multifunction panel.. Likewise the attractively priced IdraNet modules become very attractive to xAP based systems as they offer a complete range of hardware I/O options.

        Using xAP I have integrated all my PIR's from an existing security system into Cortex , as well as all my 1-wire room temperature sensors and my C-Bus lighting system. Now with an ability to add IdraNet modules I have added some dimmers, relays and the IR transceivers. I find the Cortex application very powerful and it is rapidly becoming the cornerstone for my PC based automation control. In my case I do supplement it with a standalone embedded xAP controller that provides my 'Reflex' like abilities to the xAP world, such that the system still provides basic functionality should the PC be unavailable.

        It's also possible to employ xAP to create front end applications to your Idranet world - perhaps with a bespoke web interface , or iPhone/iTouch sized screens using AJAX real-time status updates or perhaps a fullblown touchscreen application.

        So... I hope you do have a play with xAP and regard it as a way to provide support for almost any device that you wish , directly within Cortex. This can be achieved because as well as the many existing xAP connectors bespoke ones are comparatively easy to code and there are many code tools and examples to help.

        If you need any help on using xAP within Cortex I'll be more than happy to oblige...

        Kevin
        Last edited by Kevin; 11 August 2008, 12:53 PM.

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        • chris_j_hunter
          Automated Home Legend
          • Dec 2007
          • 1713

          #5
          Kevin -

          small point, but I've tried quite a few times to gen-up on xAP, most recently after your post, but each time I've visited the web-site I've found it to be pretty-much unnavigable, because of overlapping text & inaccessible links ... not sure why, maybe it just doesn't like Safari & Macs ? !

          I'm keen to understand it better, but I just can't get at it !

          Chris
          Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 11 August 2008, 09:42 PM.
          Our self-build - going further with HA...

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          • Gumby
            Moderator
            • May 2004
            • 437

            #6
            Yeah - me too I guess I should check it out in Camino ...
            ----------------------
            www.gumbrell.com

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            • Viv
              Automated Home Ninja
              • Dec 2004
              • 284

              #7
              Originally posted by Kevin View Post
              I think you will be really impressed with the xAP integration within Cortex.....
              I would just like to add that Kevin provided a great deal of support in integrating the xAP protocol into Cortex. Particularly in testing and pointing out a few undocumented features. We have never really had much feedback from the xPL community so Cortex never became a controller of that environent. As Kevin has mentioned Cortex can control xAP devices and as such would be our protocol of choice.

              Viv.
              Idratek.

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              • Gumby
                Moderator
                • May 2004
                • 437

                #8
                PS: Thanks for the detailed write-up Kevin, I'll be taking a look at xAP just as soon as I've finished painting these skirting boards...
                ----------------------
                www.gumbrell.com

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                • Kevin
                  Moderator
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 558

                  #9
                  Originally posted by chris_j_hunter View Post
                  Kevin -

                  small point, but I've tried quite a few times to gen-up on xAP, most recently after your post, but each time I've visited the web-site I've found it to be pretty-much unnavigable, because of overlapping text & inaccessible links ... not sure why, maybe it just doesn't like Safari & Macs ? !

                  I'm keen to understand it better, but I just can't get at it !

                  Chris
                  Hmm - I'm not aware of any actual formatting issues eg the overlapping text but maybe that is a Safari issue. I'll try and investigate that - could you post me an example link that illustrates this...

                  Re the links - we had a hosting / site transfer a few months back and I know a few links didn't transfer well. A few are links to external sites that have changed... we're fixing them as we come across them but all the within site links should be fine. Again if you find an example then let us know ( webmaster @ ).

                  The 'getting into xAP' type documentation has always been a 'chestnut' and I know we really need to do something here. A few adoptees have offered but I'm still to see the results. So far we've focussed on the dev tools, applications and making the actual protocol as transparent as possible, ie getting the devices into your HA I guess. I am also aware the Wiki can take a bit of getting used to.

                  Documentation is particularly poor when compared with the sterling example set by Cortex. I'll have another go at canvassing contributions. One thing we don't want to do (yet) - is encourage absolute newbies. This is because xAP still requires you to be an enthusiast (not a techie) ,and willing to invest a little time learning. We're not a totally transparent plug and play solution.

                  We are also currently looking at replacing the Yahoo group with an alternative Forum approach as I know finding things and threading on Yahoo is a nightmare.

                  But I'm here to answer any Q's you have on the Cortex side... and let's see what I can get going on the xAP documentation for new users...

                  K
                  Last edited by Kevin; 15 August 2008, 08:01 PM.

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                  • chris_j_hunter
                    Automated Home Legend
                    • Dec 2007
                    • 1713

                    #10
                    Kevin -

                    'not sure how this works, but I took a screen-shot, which I'll try to attach to this ... not sure how clear it'll be - please shout if not good enough !!


                    Chris
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 15 August 2008, 09:43 PM.
                    Our self-build - going further with HA...

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                    • chris_j_hunter
                      Automated Home Legend
                      • Dec 2007
                      • 1713

                      #11
                      no, that was awful, I'll try again - the resolution seems to get reduced in the process of attaching !
                      Attached Files
                      Our self-build - going further with HA...

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                      • Kevin
                        Moderator
                        • Jan 2004
                        • 558

                        #12
                        James has taken a look... here's what he says...

                        "Yes, just tried the wiki and it doesn't like safari. FF/IE are fine though.

                        Fixed it, little css tweak.. Google knows all ;-) Much easier to do this now i have a mac "

                        Does this help - have a look around and let me know....

                        K
                        Last edited by Kevin; 16 August 2008, 12:05 AM.

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                        • chris_j_hunter
                          Automated Home Legend
                          • Dec 2007
                          • 1713

                          #13
                          Ah - that's better ... thanks !!
                          Our self-build - going further with HA...

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