Cooking ...

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  • chris_j_hunter
    Automated Home Legend
    • Dec 2007
    • 1713

    Cooking ...

    discussion over on UK_Selfbuild got me wondering about how HA could improve the cooking experience ... oven & fridge temperature controls, it must be possible to do better ... oven timers, too ... microwave controls ... hobs ... kettle ... even dishwashers ... none of them are very precise or very smart !
    Our self-build - going further with HA...
  • Paul_B
    Automated Home Legend
    • Jul 2006
    • 608

    #2
    Put lids on your saucepans saves a lot of energy!

    Comment

    • Gumby
      Moderator
      • May 2004
      • 437

      #3
      Hmm. Thought provoking as usual.

      Cooking itself is subject to a huge number of variables far beyond time and temperature and it's not clear that in many cases better precision or repeatability of temperature would make much difference, especially with very large disturbances possible (for example by opening the oven - perhaps they should have automatic locks). And there's also larger range of output criteria to attempt to control for than it might seem at first thought: appearance, taste, texture, time of delivery, nutrient content...

      One exception to temperature control I do know about is espresso machines, where fine and repeatable control of temperature significantly improves the end result. But even with a cooking process as stripped out and simplified as espresso coffee there are many other factors not easily controlled, that can only be determined by experimentation - the best grind varied continuously with time, for example.

      I'm not clear on how "HA" relates to this, rather than requesting manufacturers do a better job with their individual devices.

      There is room for improvement on devices, my gas hob has significant backlash on the controls and I struggle to avoid boiling things over all the time (should have bought pots with glass lids). I am told that induction heating is twice as efficient (although I doubt this includes production and transmission losses in the electricity used). You'd think that gas hobs could be improved, but there's a lot of inertia and kitchen pans to overcome. And yes, I'd like my hob to detect the pan is about to boil over and turn the heat down exactly the right amount.

      One assumes the dishwasher is doing a reasonable job, although it is not perfect. I think there should be standardised testing available for these things to allow them to be compared - like EuroNCAP crash ratings. The problem with current energy ratings testing is that they are limited to energy, so it can get a gold star on energy for doing a rubbish job at dishwashing - that would be a complete waste of energy in my rating scheme.

      I suppose one could imagine an integrated kitchen in which the fridge and store cupboards detect the ingredients used, the hob and cooker report the time and temperature used and the SmartPlates(tm) can report how long the washing up was left lying around so that the dishwasher could optimise it's cleaning program.

      But I can also imagine a kitchen that helps you select a recipe based on time criteria and available ingredients, automatically works out prep and cooking timings and hence plans the timings for you, and could perhaps know how to alter the cooking if subsequent activities are going awry. Can you tell my culinary weakness?

      And with growing concern on energy usage, a menu planner that minimises energy usage (grouping use of the oven for example, and suggesting home cook/freeze combinations) might make sense.
      ----------------------
      www.gumbrell.com

      Comment

      • Gumby
        Moderator
        • May 2004
        • 437

        #4
        And then, of course, I thought about "cooking experience" rather than cooking in terms of end result.

        My HA does already improve the experience, the kitchen and surfaces are lit automatically, the heating is controlled, so the radiator doesn't run when the hobs and oven are heating the kitchen.

        It could go further, the extractor and hob lighting ought to be automatic (old tech). My espresso machine really ought to be preheated appropriately (it's on the todo list). Perhaps if a weekly menu was planned then the oven could also be preheated on the right occasions.
        ----------------------
        www.gumbrell.com

        Comment

        • jcmiguel
          Automated Home Jr Member
          • Apr 2008
          • 38

          #5
          Cooking experience

          IMHO we should leave cooking as a primitive act. It is an experience and an exercise of imaginative creation of new and different results each time. Whoever had the experience of eating day after day food prepared in a canteen knows that the "home made" experience is all about having something different even when the recipe is prepared over and over. And about planning, it is a joy to try figuring out what to do with a bunch of ingredients left in the fridge. Food automation is a recipe for obesity and poor diet in my opinion

          Comment

          • chris_j_hunter
            Automated Home Legend
            • Dec 2007
            • 1713

            #6
            Interesting ... provokes a few thoughts, too ... have now added quite a few to our list ...

            buttons to push to time set-things, that are done many times a day, and to start machines after set-delays - eg: might have just loaded the dishwasher, say, and don't want to forget it start it, but not just now - maybe in ten minutes, or when E7 night-tariff comes on-line, whatever ...

            but also to stop things - eg: 'phone or intercom rings, and want the dishwasher or even the kettle to be quiet, perhaps more than one thing, for a short spell, or only while we're talking ...

            also, as you say, pre-heat buttons, for the coffee-machine, even the oven, might be good ... and a pre-freeze button to set the freezer into continuous mode for a while, but not forever, as when we're going shopping & want it ready for loading when we get-back ...

            and things that are simple & not so simple, that it would be nice to have Cortex take care-of so we can focus on more complicated & more interesting things ... there must be lots of those !

            many would be quite simple to arrange, by running a couple of wires to things that it would be easy to tap into / onto - eg: push-button switches, both toggle & retractive ...

            always smart buttons, though, functionally-speaking, not dumb ones - being smart (contextually relevant, looking after multiple things, doing the maths) is something that Cortex can do, and would often be helpful ... and maybe buttons wouldn't always be needed, since Cortex can work from other cues - sensors, date, time, presence, etc ...
            and things like timers would be easy for it to improve just by being a bit smart - eg: tell Cortex when we want whatever it is to be ready, rather than having to work-out all the details overselves, about when to start & stop, how high, what needs to be linked-in, etc ...

            plus maybe we could have buttons we push not so much to start something as to have Cortex tell us when it is ready - oven up to temperature, say, kettle boiled, whatever ... hmm, maybe that's another use for those power-meters - Cortex might be able to work-out when the kettle or tumble-dryer turns itself off, or when the washing-machine's reached a certain stage ... wonder how many devices one meter could be used to cover ... sounds like we should increase our order by 50%, too - yep, do that !

            and how about some wall-buttons for timing and/or cutting the food-mixer (like the red button in machine-shops, getting a fast response from something that has controls that don't quite allow it) ...

            and some sort of arrangement for intelligently cutting things we've clearly gone away from & fogotten all about - something on the hob, say, or ...

            and maybe some buttons, too, we press to say we've done something we do everyday - eg: bring breakfast out the freezer before we go to bed - Cortex could then remind us if we haven't done it when we put the light-out ...

            Idratek's propensity for including zero-volt digitial inputs on a lot of their modules allows a lot of possibilities, even after thoughts ! Adding modules is easy, too ...

            going further, things that use bi-metal strips tend to have lots of hysteresis, and it might be easy to do a simple spot of tapping-in to improve things (temperature sensor on a wire & re-route the wires from the strip to a module with a relay in it) ... oven, fridge, freezer ... getting more tricky, now, of course ... 'though tapping into the one on the oven could be easy if we just wanted to know when it was up to temperature (without having to be watching the oven) ...

            as you say, lighting could be another target - scenes, obviously, but maybe with selector buttons in convenient places which prompt things contextually - eg: part-way through a meal, want to serve the next course, need to see what we're doing without ruining the mood, need the same lights we used when cooking, but not so bright ...

            more generally, too, if Cortex can't work-out what stage we've reached in something, buttons to push to help it know might be good !

            as you say, again, things like linking the extractor to the hob might be handy, again in a smart way - eg: different rates according to how many rings, say, keep going for a while after, maybe, whatever ...

            recipes, & ingredients, what's in the cupboard, etc ... maybe, would be good, but getting tricky again, 'though see Amazon are trying to follow-up on their Kindle success with a device for this, and it'll be interesting to see how far they go with it !

            BTW, people do say induction hobs are now better than gas - faster, more responsive, more controllable ... no experience ourselves, though ... so maybe a panic button by the hob to tell Cortex to cut or simmer or whatever might be an option ...

            in Tesco's the other day, found myself looking at microwave ovens (we don't have one, yet, but the days are numbered) & wondering which ones had control panels that would be easiest to tap into !

            hmmm, I'm tempted to, as a general rule, get Cortex linked into / across start/stop buttons, indicator lights, door-switches, etc - anything (figuratively speaking) a pair of (non-invasive, as it were) crocodile clips might work on ...
            Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 1 April 2009, 05:40 PM.
            Our self-build - going further with HA...

            Comment

            • Gumby
              Moderator
              • May 2004
              • 437

              #7
              Originally posted by jcmiguel View Post
              IMHO we should leave cooking as a primitive act. It is an experience and an exercise of imaginative creation of new and different results each time. Whoever had the experience of eating day after day food prepared in a canteen knows that the "home made" experience is all about having something different even when the recipe is prepared over and over. And about planning, it is a joy to try figuring out what to do with a bunch of ingredients left in the fridge. Food automation is a recipe for obesity and poor diet in my opinion
              I largely agree with you, I actually had something along those lines in my original response but must have edited it out to keep the length down.

              Certainly I don't want to see "industrial" food production in the home. The balancing of all the factors I mentioned is what makes a great cook. But on the other hand, assistance in menu planning I think could be a good idea, especially if it can include nutritional criteria. And if home cooking is made easier perhaps people will return to it instead of living off ready meals. Since my wife is a nutritional therapist I do get an ear bashing on this topic
              ----------------------
              www.gumbrell.com

              Comment

              • Gumby
                Moderator
                • May 2004
                • 437

                #8
                And I see from your other post that your wife is a dietician, so I guess you get an ear bashing as well
                ----------------------
                www.gumbrell.com

                Comment

                • chris_j_hunter
                  Automated Home Legend
                  • Dec 2007
                  • 1713

                  #9
                  funny thing to say, though - quite agree automation has to assist not take-over or get in the way ... maybe people's experience is too often of the latter (eg: TV remotes) ... the automation in our car works quite well, for example, and without doubt enhances rather than detracts from the driving experience !

                  certainly, in this case, the thought was to automate to allow better focus on what matters & on the more tricky bits ... ie: have some smart help with the mundane & predictable aspects, so can concentrate on important things - burnt offerings in our place happen when minds are distracted / far-away, ditto things getting overcooked & over brewed, so some help in avoiding that sort of thing would be great ...

                  especially since getting a meal together can involve juggling with several things simultaneously & everything can't be within sight all the time !

                  industrial can be great, too, when it's well done & not ruined by insensitive handling at the end - all too often the case, of course, so some help with could be good, as well !
                  Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 1 April 2009, 04:20 PM.
                  Our self-build - going further with HA...

                  Comment

                  • Kevin
                    Moderator
                    • Jan 2004
                    • 558

                    #10
                    Having a number of 'remind me in X minutes' buttons has been one of the things that has worked well here in the kitchen for the rest of the family . Putting a pan on for 3 minutes or leaving in the oven for 20 or even a TV reminder.

                    I found that the best approach was a number of preset buttons/times even though the more flexible is to have say a 1 minute and 10 minute one that you press to get the exact time you want. In fact the system can do both but nobody uses the configurable times, preferring the ease of the presets - they will actually use the nearest preset or even wait a minute and then press the 10 to get 11 !

                    The fact that you can have concurrent one touch independent timers as well is useful.

                    K
                    Last edited by Kevin; 1 April 2009, 04:50 PM.

                    Comment

                    • chris_j_hunter
                      Automated Home Legend
                      • Dec 2007
                      • 1713

                      #11
                      that's good to hear ... hard experience !

                      yep, direct access has a lot going for it ... funny how menus & multi-function screens are often too much trouble - something to do with keeping focus on the job in-hand & not being distracted by having to divert & remember how to call-up something or navigate to it ... again, a big plus of Idratek, I think, is the ease with which buttons can be added, as modules & individually as extension of modules ...
                      Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 1 April 2009, 04:28 PM.
                      Our self-build - going further with HA...

                      Comment

                      • chris_j_hunter
                        Automated Home Legend
                        • Dec 2007
                        • 1713

                        #12
                        >best approach was a number of preset buttons/times ...

                        practical question - do you have a way to unset what's been set - a double push, say, to cancel ?
                        Our self-build - going further with HA...

                        Comment

                        • Kevin
                          Moderator
                          • Jan 2004
                          • 558

                          #13
                          Originally posted by chris_j_hunter View Post
                          >best approach was a number of preset buttons/times ...

                          practical question - do you have a way to unset what's been set - a double push, say, to cancel ?
                          Actually I don't because I use the double presses for 2 x the time eg a 10 min button gives 20 mins if pressed twice quickly - although nobody uses that. It's kinda hard because there could be multiple timers running and you need to select which to cancel. In practice it hasn't been a big issue and the complexity possibly detracts from the usability. There is a clear button if you press it whilst setting but not once the timer is set.

                          One (in a way disappointing) thing I'm learning is that simple is best - even though it might not be the most rewarding or complete to implement. Implementing things in a complex or non intuitive way I find produces a hostility to even try things that are simple.

                          I'm even questioning push button light switches as people seem to press them all until something happens. If they are interlinked in some way ie scenes it can often be unclear which button does what. Buttons also aren't so 'fumble in the dark' friendly. (Take that as you may). I originally used 8 or 6 button switches but I'm rapidly reducing to four or even two button , and trying to standardise across rooms which position does what eg bottom right is always the main room scene etc.

                          K
                          Last edited by Kevin; 1 April 2009, 05:03 PM.

                          Comment

                          • Paul_B
                            Automated Home Legend
                            • Jul 2006
                            • 608

                            #14
                            Slightly more detailed response than my first ;o)

                            I think Home-Automation could have a part to play in the kitchen (slightly wider topic than the thread title) for control systems.

                            We've already highlighted the use of controls to stop pans boiling over, but most foods taste better and use far less energy when cooked at 90-95 degrees rather than 99/100 degrees (remember latent heat, amount of energy to change state i.e liquid to gas). Could we use those IR thermometers to better control the cooking process? Possibly the same principle for monitoring the oven and signaling when it has reached the correct temperature?

                            I like Chris idea of muting / pausing things, especially in the kitchen, when a telephone call is received or someone knocks at the door.

                            Taps could turn off automatically if step away from them when filling the sink and then forget to turn them off. Or get the right temperature mix without having to add cold water when you have far too much hot.

                            Something I've spoken about before is the use of current sensors (or maybe now the AlertMe Smart plugs) to indicate when things have finished, send a message and turn off completely i.e. washing machine, tumble dryer, dishwasher, etc. This could also be extended to extractor fans.

                            My freezer, Liebherr, already has a HA bus installed for sending information (I think this is based around KNX). It can tell you things like temperature, door open, power failure, etc.

                            I guess at the moment I have bigger things to automate but definitely worth further consideration.

                            On the topic of induction hobs don't they generate high magnetic fields? So much so that people with pacemakers are advised not to use them?

                            Paul

                            Comment

                            • Gumby
                              Moderator
                              • May 2004
                              • 437

                              #15
                              Funnily enough I was going to suggest something like this as a Cortex feature - especially appropriate to DFP/MFP.

                              I can imagine a button/menu entry to enter "set timer" and then a quick selection of minutes and seconds. Being able to have multiple timers running concurrently would make this really useful. And I guess you could chose extended notification beyond current panel.

                              Fixed times could be simulated using macros.
                              ----------------------
                              www.gumbrell.com

                              Comment

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