Wiring Topology

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  • drod
    Automated Home Jr Member
    • Nov 2008
    • 30

    Wiring Topology

    Hi,

    I about to start an Idratek installation and am currently building my "Node-0/I".

    My house needs a complete rewire and while I have a lot of flexibility for cabling at this time, I don't want to be ripping the walls out again at a future date. Therefore, I'd like to make sure I cover the following scenarios in my cable layout plans - however improbable they may be!

    * Selling the house and removing all the HA
    * Moving back to a "standard" system
    * Moving to another Home Automation system

    My initial question is around the topology layout. I thought it may be a good idea to try to build a "star" layout as much as possible, even though Idratek support a free topology.

    I don't have a final count for the required number of cat5's, but it seems that if I use an IPS-002 with 4 outputs then it seems a natural extension to add 4 x 6 way patchboard (as per "Gumby's" blog). I believe this will leave me with 20 connectors that could be used for my star layout.

    I don't think this will be enough and what other methods anyone has used; for example:

    * allocate a number of spurs per room and hope I can rework on a room-by-room basis if required
    * add more patchboards in my node-I to force a star connection layout knowing that if I have to change systems, everything is acsessible at one location
    * forget about the problem, as many system may work on my actual layout anyway!

    Cheers - Dave
  • Gumby
    Moderator
    • May 2004
    • 437

    #2
    Hi,

    I guess a complete star topology for every outlet position would be futureproof, if painful to install. I think a lot of HA systems that use CAT-5 work with a daisy chain topology.

    I now use a pair of 36-way Cat5 patch panels. I have incoming Idranet cables terminated on the back of the first one, and then a set of short bridging cables to the second. The second patch panel then has groups of 6 outlets commoned up and the cable feeds to the IPS. This allows me to isolate any individual feed line. Even with this, I still have many more than 36 modules, so still have star/daisy chain.

    In fact, each bank actually feeds to one of 4 6-way patch boards so that it is easy to cutover to the MPD, and this also feeds 4 spurs to another patch panel in my conventional Node-0 so that I can use that cabling for Idratek devices as well.

    The alternative would be to terminate on Krone type blocks, however, I found these to be quite painful to common up for the spur cabling.
    ----------------------
    www.gumbrell.com

    Comment

    • JonS
      Automated Home Guru
      • Dec 2007
      • 202

      #3
      I've used 1 spur per floor in a 3 storey house with the 4th for outside. For each floor spur I have a 6WA which allows 1 Idranet cable per room. Most rooms only have 1 Idranet device. In the main living areas there are more devices but these are within a distribution panel (large consumer unit type box). Within these boxes all the modules are daisy chained.
      So I can isolate by room from the 6WAs (which are distributed across floors to minimise cable runs) and isolate modules in the distribution panels individually. I've not had any problems resulting from this layout.

      I've used the DIs on the room panels (MFP/DFP) to link in door & window switches and additional PIRs. If I were doing it again I would consider running these security sensors back to a couple of "concentrator nodes" so that if when the time comes to sell I could completely separate the security and HA functions. I don't have any issue with the integration of Idratek, its worked flawlessly, but in house sales I think being able to de-HA the house may open the doors to a wider market. But then people with swimming pools don't fill them in when they sell, so maybe being too cautious...

      My blog isn't very uptodate but there is alot there about planning etc, I hope you find it useful

      J
      JonS

      Comment

      • pdwarriner
        Automated Home Jr Member
        • Nov 2008
        • 25

        #4
        Dave,

        I had an exisiting burglar alarm in the place when we moved in and left that as is. I have a simple daisy chain from one place to the next all coming back to my PC interface, i was surprised how little cable I used this way.

        However, given the choice now and time to plan, I would do it like JonS suggested and have an MPD (or IPS) spur going to each floor, then this star'ing out to each room and device. The beauty is that if you needed another star, you can just star off an existing star spur.

        As I can get to the burglar alarm box and all the PIR/door contact signals, I am planning on brining these into an ODI sometime soon ... I just don't want to go back into the dirty attic again!

        Peter.

        Comment

        • drod
          Automated Home Jr Member
          • Nov 2008
          • 30

          #5
          Hi All,

          Thanks for that - a lot of good ideas.

          I'd already thought of running the connections to a single patch panel, but this was mainly to tidy the whole set of cables up, rather than from a management/isolation point of view.

          I think the way I may proceed is to combine the ideas. For example, work out how many cables I'll have in total - get a patch panel big enough to accomodate them and then group into smaller bundles as per Gumbys suggestion. However, the grouping can be based around floors and/or functionality as per Peter/Jon; that should give me the flexibility to isolate a single device or a whole function as required.

          Re the topology, I think that while I have the chance I'll try and use a 'star' wherever possible.

          Thanks for the help!

          Comment

          • chris_j_hunter
            Automated Home Legend
            • Dec 2007
            • 1713

            #6
            just a few thoughts -

            star / tree topology also for computer network, AV distribution, etc ... and run them all at once / together ...

            and not only Cat-5, also power - run separately, but in-parallel ...

            and, if intercom is to be part of the Idratek set-up - using MFP / DFP - then screened Cat-5 might be the thing to use for the Idranet ... (?)

            patch-leads are available in quite long lengths - so using single through patch-panels might be an option, rather than twin (less fiddle, less losses) ...

            Chris
            Our self-build - going further with HA...

            Comment

            • Viv
              Automated Home Ninja
              • Dec 2004
              • 284

              #7
              Considering the lighting wiring you can wire the lights conventionally. That is by using a dual pattress you feed the light switch wiring to the right hand part of a dual pattress (not a double pattress). The idranet wiring goes to the left hand side of the pattress. A DFP can then be used at this location. On the right hand side a relay unit switches the lights. If the automation is removed the left hand side can be blanked off and the right had side wired for a conventional light switch.

              Using this same configuration i.e. dual pattress we are developing a small module unit which will provide Light Level, Motion, Temperature, Humidity, Two buttons, two digital inputs and a driver for an XRM (relay) unit. Such an installation can be then upgraded to a DFP unit if required.

              Note that an Idranet spur can typically feed 3 DFP units and some other modules.

              Viv.
              Last edited by Viv; 13 June 2009, 12:22 AM.

              Comment

              • drod
                Automated Home Jr Member
                • Nov 2008
                • 30

                #8
                Thanks all,

                > if intercom is to be part of the Idratek set-up - using MFP / DFP - then screened Cat-5 might be the thing to use for the Idranet.

                Yes, I'd picked up on a few people using c-bus cabling for this.

                > star / tree topology also for computer network, AV distribution
                I'm fine with data network, but haven't got to far with AV yet - think that's going to open up another can of worms for me!

                Viv, that's very helpful info for the lighting. I'd noticed elsewhere that someone (sorry lost the post) had mentioned just add lighting switches where you would actually use them, rather than by the doors where you'd normally expect them. I was going to look at that, but I was a little concerned about how to "de-automate" that. Think I may be better to stick with convention for a while and place them where expected!

                Thanks - Dave

                Comment

                • chris_j_hunter
                  Automated Home Legend
                  • Dec 2007
                  • 1713

                  #9
                  NB: C-Bus cable not screened !

                  AV: using active components, Cat-5 could be OK for this, too - that's the way we're trying to go, anyway !
                  Our self-build - going further with HA...

                  Comment

                  • chris_j_hunter
                    Automated Home Legend
                    • Dec 2007
                    • 1713

                    #10
                    de-automating - wonder if Reflex could cover it, and so largely avoid (apart from MFP/DFPs, say) having to undo the install ??
                    Our self-build - going further with HA...

                    Comment

                    • drod
                      Automated Home Jr Member
                      • Nov 2008
                      • 30

                      #11
                      Originally posted by chris_j_hunter View Post
                      NB: C-Bus cable not screened !
                      Thanks for the clarification; just re-read the details and noticed it's 240v sheathing, not screened!

                      Comment

                      • Paul_B
                        Automated Home Legend
                        • Jul 2006
                        • 608

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Gumby View Post

                        I now use a pair of 36-way Cat5 patch panels. I have incoming Idranet cables terminated on the back of the first one, and then a set of short bridging cables to the second. The second patch panel then has groups of 6 outlets commoned up and the cable feeds to the IPS. This allows me to isolate any individual feed line. Even with this, I still have many more than 36 modules, so still have star/daisy chain.
                        Hi David,

                        Do you have front and back pics of your setup terminating at the patch panel?

                        Paul

                        Comment

                        • Gumby
                          Moderator
                          • May 2004
                          • 437

                          #13
                          Attached a quick pic, I may unscrew the panels to take a picture of back another time. But they are standard punchdown blocks, so on the incomer each individual Idratek feed is punched down to one socket.

                          On the other panel I just daisy chain one Cat-5 cable across 6 outlets. The other end of each of these cables then goes to the 6-way patch board. At the 6-way I common up the patch panel feed and a similarly arranged feed to another patch panel in the Node-0, the feed from the IPS and also a feed to an MPD, which is left un-plugged. The idea of that to create an easy way to swop out the IPS in event of a problem.

                          When I have found a cheap source of small lengths of stranded CAT5 I'll make much shorted loops to go from panel to panel.
                          Attached Files
                          ----------------------
                          www.gumbrell.com

                          Comment

                          • Gumby
                            Moderator
                            • May 2004
                            • 437

                            #14
                            OK, as requested this is the rear of one of my patch panels, this one is actually from the Node-0. Of the 4 banks of outlets, 3 are used for Idratek spurs, and the 4th bank is commoned up for POTS.

                            I ran out of Pink, so it's done in bog standard grey. Basically you just strip of a long length of the sheath and work your way back and forth across the punchdown blocks.
                            Attached Files
                            ----------------------
                            www.gumbrell.com

                            Comment

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