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Thread: Sending internet around the Aerial circuit

  1. #11
    Automated Home Guru jpdw's Avatar
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    Hi..

    What's the issue you're having with using conventional WiFi? You mention the expense of running cables but also mention needing to run multiple ADSL lines -- which themselves would require cables!

    If you have multiple appartments in a single building then I would guess part of your problem is that a single cell of wireless coverage wont work and that you need several access points to give building-wide coverage. If you're describing using multiple wireless DSL routers then this explains why you mention needing lots of ADSL lines, but honestly, a single DSL line shared across multiple APs would problem give enough bandwidth (unless your renters are all online gamers).

    So I'd think a DSL router and several 802.11 access points would be a usable solution. Yes, you'd need to run some cable back between the APs and the DSL router, but you could position the APs in the corridor which would make the cabling dead easy. [ yes, you can get wireless repeaters but the moment you enable this the effective bandwidth halves and you increase latency, hence I recommend cable to the APs ]

    Wifi is great and can work very well in multi-tenented locations, but so often it gets a bad rep because of bad implementations by people or because of the poor quality very cheap equipment. [ I could start listing hospitals or schools which are stuffed full of cisco APs all on the same channel which will never work (there are only 2 companies in the world that can make this work, but cisco isn't one of them !)]


    jon
    Jon

  2. #12
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    Hi Jpdw

    There are several issues. Thick walls and problems with wifi repeaters not working well (hence the extra ADSL lines). Note also wifi in the hallway won't serve the whole flats as their living rooms are too far form the hall.

    4 Wifi access points from 4 adsl lines supplying wifi to 9 flats is how it's configured now. I am trying to reduce the existing config to a single ADSL line. Remeber existing ADSL cabling was done by the phone operator and might have been there 100 years, so I cannot even guarantee there is a way to recable it without lots of drilling (it's not my building). If I have to do a big cable job i will spend more than I save.

    I had a couple ideas - sending internet through the mains (probably won't work because of the electricity meters) and the other was to use Coax routers. That's where I am at now.

    I had a look at this
    http://www.aphelions.com/Aphelion_WICA.htm and variations of it but all I could find was people saying it probably won't work well because of line loss. Not many people have tried it.

    This one looks the most interesting out of the options so far

    http://www.actiontec.com/products/da...0Datasheet.pdf

  3. #13
    Automated Home Guru jpdw's Avatar
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    Ok, looks like you're preferred route is via the coax, though i still reckon that getting you to several (reasonable quality) Wifi Access Points back to a central DSL line would work. Dont let your experience of Wifi-in-DSL-routers taint your view of how well Wifi can work with reasonable (and I dont necessarily mean expensive) kit.

    And if you mean "WDS" type kit as Wifi repeaters, I'm not really suprised. It's a nice idea in concept -- wireless wireless -- but in practise it's slow, doubles the number of channels used, therefore doubles the opportunity to suffer interference and have to resend etc,...,... I'm sure it works great if you have 1 AP and 1 repeater in the middle of a field several miles from anything else.... Best way is cable to the Wifi Access Point. This also allows the AP to be positioned ideally for where the laptops will be, not a compromise between that and the link to it's uplink AP ... anyway,... I digress....

    I looked at Coax routers myself a while ago to a particular room (there was a specific reason -- to lengthy to mention now - why I couldn't use my WLAN). At the time they were around 100+ each. And these were just Coax-Ethernet -- not the Coax-802.11 WLAN you'd need. My point is that -- in my experience -- running a small number of data points would be cheaper and allow you do concentrate to a single DSL line. Maybe your landlord is the issue but I'd still be suprised if there isnt a way.

    If you do decide against coax for any reason then by all means PM me and I'm happy to discuss further to see if you could do a central DSL with several APs dotted around. I do this stuff for a living because I think its great technology, so I'm happy to advise if I can help you ( I work for an enterprise vendor so this is NOT a sales pitch, just offer of free advice!).
    Last edited by jpdw; 24th January 2010 at 12:37 AM.
    Jon

  4. #14
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    Thanks Jon

    Just wondering. You say cisco is no good for repeating? Who is good and what's the difference?

    How many times can you repeat a wifi signal before you get significant degradation?

  5. #15
    Automated Home Legend TimH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaeldon View Post
    I also thought of passing internet through the mains circuit, but apparently the electricity meter on each flat will block that out, so that is a no-no.
    This would've been my suggestion. It's true that MCBs can drop the speed through these devices, not sure about a meter though, and whether an old-skool spinny-disc one would be better than a modern electronic meter.

    Do you have a "tame" tennant you could try it with?

    How much control do you have over the wiring in the flats? Could you extract the network signal from before the meter and either bypass or install an access point in each flat?

    Old-skool networking was on coax but 50-ohm (IIRC). Aerial cable is likely to be 75-ohm Maybe some products would still work...

    Wireless would be the other obvious solution but you've commented on that. Just out of interest, why do you need 4 ADSL lines and not 1 line serving 4 access points?

    What other service voids do you have? I'm thinking of plumbing corridors, lift shafts, janitor rooms etc.
    What about up the outside of the building?

    Just some thoughts, HTH,

    Tim.

  6. #16
    Automated Home Legend TimH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaeldon View Post
    Just wondering. You say cisco is no good for repeating?
    I think the point was that you'd normally select different channels for adjacent access points to avoid interference. Configuring all access points for the same channel means the signals bleed over each other and your overall range is significantly reduced.

    HTH,

    Tim.

  7. #17
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    Hi Tim

    the reason we have 4 ADSL lines is that we found it unworkable to repeat 1 WIFI signal throughout the building. Of course we are using multiple channels so I don't think interference was the main issue.

    Just a note - this building is not in the UK so I don't know the coax cable impedance. In any case we have many buildings in many countries we'd like to find a general solution for.

    If you have info about internet through power lines working past meters that would be very interesting

    Regarding the tenants, we have control over all the flats so we can get in and out when we want to but I would have trouble with the building owner running ugly cables in the stairwell or drilling through walls and windows.

  8. #18
    Automated Home Jr Member Gangsta's Avatar
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    Why not just buy any 'old' hub, and wire it 10base2, connect onto the coax you have - job done. just make sure you install safertap (or similar) as the outlet in each apartment, or on the droplink to prevent disruption to the other apartments.

    You can probably pick up everything you need at a local it recycling place for a couple of quid (they may just tell you to take it away), and 10Mb is usually way more than you use for the interweb anyway.

    I know my 24 port hub has coax connectors, and up till a few years ago it was still in widespread use in 'cheapo' government departments who wouldn't fund the upgrade to cat5.

    Here is a suitable hub, on ebay for 1 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Accton-16port-...a#ht_500wt_975

    the coax goes to the bnc connector on the back
    Last edited by Gangsta; 25th January 2010 at 09:22 PM. Reason: added ebay link

  9. #19
    Automated Home Legend TimH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaeldon View Post
    Hi Tim
    the reason we have 4 ADSL lines is that we found it unworkable to repeat 1 WIFI signal throughout the building. Of course we are using multiple channels so I don't think interference was the main issue.
    I would've thought (as the other poster suggested) that one DSL line and router with multiple access points would work, the challenge would be cabling between the APs.

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeldon View Post
    Just a note - this building is not in the UK so I don't know the coax cable impedance. In any case we have many buildings in many countries we'd like to find a general solution for.
    I did wonder
    I'm not sure it matters though, I would expect 75-ohm universally.

    Picking up on the earlier references to MoCA (http://www.mocalliance.org/)
    The description sounds exactly like what you're after, but I wonder whether any of this is "consumer" yet, or whether its for the large cable-tv companies.

    There's also this this from May 2008: http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/20/d...rnet-adapter/2
    which looks like it would do the job?

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeldon View Post
    If you have info about internet through power lines working past meters that would be very interesting
    unfortunately not. A practical test would be reasonably inexpensive though...

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeldon View Post
    Regarding the tenants, we have control over all the flats so we can get in and out when we want to but I would have trouble with the building owner running ugly cables in the stairwell or drilling through walls and windows.
    Trying to think a bit laterally - each flat has its own electricity meter (AIUI) so the tenants are individually billed for their consumption. But there must be "common" areas, lift/stairwells, corridors, etc. and presumably these are lit.
    If you went powerline-ethernet to light fittings you could take advantage of the cables already run and locate access points in the common areas. If necessary then bridge between an AP inside the flat and the common one outside. Once inside the flat you could go to more powerline-ethernet to distribute the signal internally.
    That avoids having to pass the signals through the individual leccy meters (if proved not possible) while still taking advantage of existing building infrastructure as far as possible. False ceilings in the corridors would be ideal to hide the APs behind but it obviously depends on the age & style of each building.

    HTH,

    Tim.

  10. #20
    Automated Home Jr Member
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    Thanks for the ideas Tim. I actually did think of using the hallway lighting circuit to distribute the net but I wasn't sure if it would work because I have no idea if live/neutral and earth are all cabled to these hallway switches and what the effect of a 220v device sitting across live and neutral would be, especially when someone closes the switch. As you can tell I am no electrician

    Elevator power might be an option but it also means a lot of messing about and with power lines I may have no access to.

    I really like the idea of using 10 Base 2. Very clever. Would it work on 75 ohm cable? I found this on Wikipedia:

    "Antenna network 75 ohm
    A terminating resistor for a television coaxial cable is often in the form of a cap, threaded to screw onto an F connector. Antenna cables are sometimes used for internet connections; however RG-6 should not be used for 10BASE2 (which should use RG-58) as the impedance mismatch can cause phasing problems with the baseband signal."

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