Newbie, House Renovation, Suggestions pretty please?

**Steelercaz** · 20 July 2010, 05:25 PM

Somehow I managed to miss a couple of things!

I would love to add a sophisticated multi-room audio system, but don't have the pennies, so for now:
- All my music is on iTunes on my PC, and the fella's is on his PC - but I know you can now get .aac to .mp3 converters, so potential with various ways of doing things.
- So far I'm just thinking convert to .mp3, use via Win7 Media Center, broadcast to laptops / Joggler in kitchen.
- We knew we wanted speakers in the bathroom, which is next to the bedroom, and to be controlled from the corner in the landing which the bedroom and bathroom make. We had to knock down the block wall between the 2 and replace with a stud wall, so, in a cheap & cheerful (and ugly!) manner, I ran a 40mm waste pipe from where we're hoping to put a corner shelf (with maybe a Joggler, wi-fi digital photo frame or iPhone dock) up into the loft, so wires can be run between the 2. We used a dry wall pattress box to run the pipe into, which we will probably cover with a blanking plate, drilled for whatever wires run through it, or one of those brush-like cable entry panels.
- Because it would probably also need power, and there isnt' any on the landing, we ran some more pipe down from the bottom of the pattress box to another pattress box at the bottom of our bedroom wall, which is next to a double power outlet but will be hidden behind the bed, so mains adaptors could be fished through the pipe and powered from the bedroom.
- A rough 'n' ready solution, but hopefully it means we can chop and change what we do here in the future - a cheap alternative to proper trunking, etc! (if that sounds like total drivel, here's links to a couple of pics that show what's what: the pipework in the wall, the pattress box on the landing where the little shelf will be .

- For the kitchen, I'm thinking streaming from the lounge PC to the Joggler...

The only thing I would love to have that I've no idea how to do is a decent but cheapish way to put speakers in both the lounge, and in the kitchen diner, so that if we were having a party we could stream the same audio into both rooms, maybe even upstairs. I know you can do this via Win7 MC media streaming, but ideally I'd like to add some wiring now so that it could use some decent speakers in the future. At a loss on that one, as know zilch about speakers/speaker wire/audio...

**add** · 20 July 2010, 07:13 PM

I recently got a joggler too

So I'd be interested to see where you go on that one.

In regards to your sound system... it could be as simple as having two sets of independent speakers which are both joined into the same output socket by a splitter. Otherwise you're probably going to be looking at switchers/matrix systems. On another note... if you have all your mp3s in one big folder... whats to stop you sharing that folder with all your devices? And if you want music in one room to play in others... Does VLC support audio streaming? *scratches head*

Security... if it (Veritas) has an output that you could connect to an input board on a PC or to HomeVision, then you could detect when the alarm is triggered and send lots of X10 ON commands.

Energy monitoring... surely you can get an iPhone app for a CurrentCost unit?

I'm not a fan of AlertMe... even if it's just for the reason that I don't want to rely on an external company... My house should be self-sufficient techwise.

I can't remember any more of your points

but good luck with the project and keep us all informed!

**add** · 20 July 2010, 07:17 PM

P.S. just thought.. if you're still in a situation where you could run more cat 6... do

even if you ran 8 to every room you're bound to run out one day.. you can run it all back to your patch panel and then patch it through to whatever arrangement you need it in later

**toscal** · 20 July 2010, 07:34 PM

For audio have a look at Sonos.
If Carlsberg made multiroom audio it would be a Sonos.

**Karam** · 21 July 2010, 12:14 AM

Caroline,

I should make it clear from the outset that I'm an Idratek person, but ...

Much of the HA aspects of the functionality (and more that you haven't yet considered) is provided in an integrated way by the Idratek system. So energy monitoring, automated lighting control, security, cameras, plus sophisticated automated heating control (which I may have missed you mentioning but I'm second guessing might be of interest to someone who is interested in energy monitoring) and much more. Also all accessible remotely and with full data archiving and graphical presentation - with no middle man. There is also xAP, X10 and Rako interfacing though the latter two technologies are somewhat basic and are typically used for simple unacknowledged control functions where an IDRANet network wire can't be run.

Since you are already thinking of using a PC as the 'control platform' then you already have the platform for the Idratek Cortex software.

The main problem would be the need for network wiring. This requirement is not so onerous for an Idratek system since it uses a bus rather than hub structure - meaning several modules can hang off a single network cable. Nonetheless if you have already plastered in your existing cables then you may find that some of these cables don't necessarily go where you might want to put a module.

Ad · 21 July 2010, 04:38 PM

With the caveat that i've never used anything else I'm quite happy with my HomeSeer install. Whilst its not that cheap you can start off basic and then work your way up.

Energy monitoring can be done with the Current Cost (might be able to get them free from NPower or your electricity provider) and a USB cable into the PC - script to get the data into HomeSeer is free, the plugin is about $10 I believe.

A lot of people say stay away from X10, I have got a X10 setup and whilst not the biggest in the world (about 20-25 modules) the only problems with it I have been able to resolve easily. For ease of use and the fact you can pick modules up on ebay for cheap I think it is still worthwhile to look into. Some of the X10^2 modules have some nice features (local control/soft start/dim) and look a little more pleasing on the eye.

HS has a built in web interface which you can use on the iPhone or there are some third party interfaces (and there is a iPhone HSTouch plugin, but its extra money)

Cameras/Security are another relatively easy thing to get into HomeSeer, you might need some additional hardware though. The only problem is that there is currently no media player interface - there was for XP Media Centre and Vista Media Centre but not currently one for W7, it may come in the future though.

It can be a very powerful piece of software and you can start of small and then work your way up in the future...might give you some ideas...

**Kevin** · 21 July 2010, 04:43 PM

I think just about everyone starts with X10 and evolves. For some it seems to work really well and it's a great entry point.

Mine was a retrofit in a big old house and I mix IDRATek and C-Bus as each has advantages. I also use HomeSeer software. I have taken a dual approach of getting most mains wiring in a star configuration back to the consumer unit but the switching control is on the low voltage bus (CAT5). I have a few outputs on CAT5 at endpoint positions too , and I've used a bit of wireless stuff for those truly inaccessible places.

Cortex - which is the software that controls IDRANet is very very different to most other HA offerings in that it is functionality oriented. It takes key areas eg security, heating, lighting that Karam mentions above and applies lots of smarts behind the scenes which make things happen almost by magic. It automatically uses input sensors and outputs via links to create very capable models that would take months of programming in other HA systems. Cortex has far greater inbuilt control flexibility than a standard C-Bus system.

C-Bus I use mainly because I chose it first and I prefer some of their switches, touchscreens etc. Both systems can use standard switches of your own style wired into input units too. This helps in less contemporary rooms. In C-Bus it's the switches that really push your install cost up rather than the dimmer/relay electronics.

Because I use xAP the actual hardware or switch can be totally mix and match - a button on a C-Bus switch or touchscreen controlling an IDRANet dimmer or even X10 , or an IDRANet temperature sensor turning on a ZigBee controlled fan... That in a roundabout way is a key benefit of xAP in that you don't necessarily commit yourself down one road and can migrate gradually. Cortex offers inbuilt xAP whilst C-Bus requires a hardware add on gateway.

AV integration within either of these systems is bit more awkward however.. another topic (I use Sonos)

The Joggler came along as a really affordable touchcsreen - ideal for HA and so by creating an application that interacts via xAP you can use the Joggler screen for C-Bus, IDRANet, X10, Dynalite, Homeseer or whatever... as long as it's xAP enabled.

K

PS I know you're mostly finished with your wiring Caroline, but if you're stuck then the usual retrofit suggestion is RF based, perhaps ZigBee or Z-Wave as they are both two way. Rako is one way.

Anyway just to mention I have a load of C-Bus Wireless switches that I bulk bought. They are basically a relay or dimmer switch that replaces a standard switch and then they talk to each other creating a network - that can also be bridged onto a C-Bus wired network later should you want. If you or indeed anyone is interested then let me know - these ones could be very affordable ;-)

http://www.clipsal.co.uk/downloads/C...e%20Uk%202.pdf

**Steelercaz** · 21 July 2010, 04:58 PM

Hi 'add' - thanks for your thoughts. I have a feeling the Joggler-hacking may be quite addictive, there's a serious community sprung up around it - not sure if you've seen www.joggler.info? A great value way to get a decent little machine with a pretty good touch panel...

I need to do a lot more research into the audio side of things - kept putting it off, as know so little about it, but the lounge will get getting plastered shortly so pretty much need to have it sorted by Saturday latest! When you say "it could be as simple as having two sets of independent speakers which are both joined into the same output socket by a splitter." - do you mean just using the 'audio out' jack on the PC and using one of those headphone splitters? If so, how are the speakers controlled - literally just removing the plug if you don't want it playing in that room? I can't emphasise enough how little I know about audio - I know ZILCH about speakers, amps, wiring, etc...

The AlertMe product having to work through a web interface grates with me too - if you could control it directly it would be a huge improvement, but I doubt they'll ever do it (since they couldn't charge you a monthly fee then!) Not sure about an iPhone app for Current Cost - haven't seen one, but will have a dig tonight.

I already wish I'd ran more Cat - particularly as I have loads left, but it would be really difficult to do now: my runs into the bedroom go up through the office ceiling, across the loft in some 40mm waste pipes, and down some trunking under the plasterboards in the bedroom - I don't think I'd fit another wire down any of the trunking, so only way I could run any more would be to cut into the plasterboard. Hmmmm, tempting! As for downstairs, it runs down through some boxing the fella built for me in the hall, which is now plasterboarded round ready to be plastered in, under the floorboards, through some waste pipes (notice a theme here?!), then into the little cubby. Not sure I'd be able to push it down the hall boxing - but I'm tempted to try tonight.... My fella will kill me, he thought the hours of cabling were over!!

My biggest regret already was only running 2 Cat6 to the kitchen, which go to a little recess I got a carpenter to build that's been plastered now and sits above where the worktop will be. Why didn't I run any into the ceiling/walls?! The kitchen diner is going to be a 'feature' room, so why did I completely ignore it in terms of HA/audio?! Doh......

By the way, if anyone wants any decent Cat6, I have a spare 305m roll, for some very boring reasons - drop me a PM if you're interested.

Hi Toscal - I've spent a fair bit of time looking at Sonos, but unfortunately most of that time was pointing out to myself that I can't afford it! I guess it can be added later though, since it can be wireless...?

Hi Karam - I've been looking at Idratek a fair bit today after comments over on the original thread, but since it needs wiring and the house is already half plastered I'm probably a bit stuck. Plus, I've read everything on the Idratek site, plus all the FAQs on the Idratek Automated Home forum, and still really quite confused as to what components I'd actually need to get up and running, and how much it would cost. Terms like having to 'earth the wiring' left me a bit cold - not something I have any experience with.

I wish I'd given this option more thought earlier on - got swayed towards X10 due to its simplicity, but most people here are pointing out issues with reliability and having no feedback... Do you think Idratek could be installed by a complete newbie, if I did manage to figure out how to do some extra wiring?

**Steelercaz** · 21 July 2010, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by Kevin View Post

I think just about everyone starts with X10 and evolves. For some it seems to work really well and it's a great entry point.

Mine was a retrofit in a big old house and I mix IDRATek and C-Bus as each has advantages. I also use HomeSeer software. I have taken a dual approach of getting most mains wiring in a star configuration back to the consumer unit but the switching control is on the low voltage bus (CAT5). I have a few outputs on CAT5 at endpoint positions too , and I've used a bit of wireless stuff for those truly inaccessible places.

Cortex - which is the software that controls IDRANet is very very different to most other HA offerings in that it is functionality oriented. It takes key areas eg security, heating, lighting that Karam mentions above and applies lots of smarts behind the scenes which make things happen almost by magic. It automatically uses input sensors and outputs via links to create very capable models that would take months of programming in other HA systems. Cortex has far greater inbuilt control flexibility than a standard C-Bus system.

C-Bus I use mainly because I chose it first and I prefer some of their switches, touchscreens etc. Both systems can use standard switches of your own style wired into input units too. This helps in less contemporary rooms. In C-Bus it's the switches that really push your install cost up rather than the dimmer/relay electronics.

Because I use xAP the actual hardware or switch can be totally mix and match - a button on a C-Bus switch or touchscreen controlling an IDRANet dimmer or even X10 , or an IDRANet temperature sensor turning on a ZigBee controlled fan... That in a roundabout way is a key benefit of xAP in that you don't necessarily commit yourself down one road and can migrate gradually. Cortex offers inbuilt xAP whilst C-Bus requires a hardware add on gateway.

AV integration within either of these systems is bit more awkward however.. another topic (I use Sonos)

The Joggler came along as a really affordable touchcsreen - ideal for HA and so by creating an application that interacts via xAP you can use the Joggler screen for C-Bus, IDRANet, X10, Dynalite, Homeseer or whatever... as long as it's xAP enabled.

K

PS I know you're mostly finished with your wiring Caroline, but if you're stuck then the usual retrofit suggestion is RF based, perhaps ZigBee or Z-Wave as they are both two way. Rako is one way.

Anyway just to mention I have a load of C-Bus Wireless switches that I bulk bought. They are basically a relay or dimmer switch that replaces a standard switch and then they talk to each other creating a network - that can also be bridged onto a C-Bus wired network later should you want. If you or indeed anyone is interested then let me know - these ones could be very affordable ;-)

http://www.clipsal.co.uk/downloads/C...e%20Uk%202.pdf

Hi again Kevin

More brilliant info, thanks!

So, if, for example, I were to buy some of your C-Bus switches, presumably I would need to get a remote to control them initially, in a simple way, but could move to controlling via xAP later? Could they be controlled simply by the Joggler app, or would they need some sort of interface between the two?

I haven't really looked at C-Bus, as I thought it used a proprietary wiring system that was considered pretty much the 'top end' of HA.

Could you PM the details of what you have? I'm definitely interested based on your post! (I take it from the pdf they are for US backboxes though, not standard UK single gangs? )

**Kevin** · 21 July 2010, 05:28 PM

One other methodology that I personally think is really important... HA is great when it works but can be a nightmare when it fails and can rapidly alienate the family... nothing worse than not being able to turn a light on, the music off or even change channel on the TV (been there).

I've tried to take an approach of allowing everything to function without a PC being required - eg all the heating and security/alarm. The lightswitches control the lights directly , and the AV system can be controlled in any room. They are all effectively standalone systems.

I then add extra smarts provided by say a PC or even better a dedicated controller as they don't usually crash or get turned off/rebooted. The extra smarts link these systems and add features like bringing lights on during the day if the room is occupied but it goes really dark.. etc.

I'm pretty averse to the PC as a controller - unless it's pretty much a dedicated PC for that purpose, but I know most people here probably use them for logic and scheduling, and are quite happy. If I can have all the bits running in a standalone black box (embedded) then I'm far happier.

Just about all the main lighting systems based on a low voltage control bus can run standalone. Although IDRANet supplements it's behaviour using the PC application Cortex it has a fallback 'Reflex' ability so that buttons can control lights dependably even if the PC goes AWOL.

K

**Kevin** · 21 July 2010, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by Steelercaz View Post

So, if, for example, I were to buy some of your C-Bus switches, presumably I would need to get a remote to control them initially, in a simple way, but could move to controlling via xAP later? Could they be controlled simply by the Joggler app, or would they need some sort of interface between the two?

I was really suggesting these because it seemed you might not have the star mains wiring or low voltage bus structure in place for ceiling lighting. There are quite a few RF solutions - some two way and some single way. The C-Bus solution is , as you say 'top end' and although these switches are cost effective later expansion would be at a price...

Yes there is a remote control available . The switches are UK sized but require deep back boxes, also best for new build style walls rather than thick stone. To later control these via xAP you would need the C-Bus wireless gateway/bridge and a xAP gateway which is going to cost maybe £300 or so at retail. If you're not intending a fuller C-Bus system then this route probably isn't going to appeal even though these switches are well priced.

Another thought take a look at HomeEasy from B&Q which is very low cost.

Don't dismiss X10 as it isn't necessarily a bad route, even if you do decide later to replace it with something else, there is still a second hand market.

K

**Karam** · 22 July 2010, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by Steelercaz View Post

Hi Karam - I've been looking at Idratek a fair bit today after comments over on the original thread, but since it needs wiring and the house is already half plastered I'm probably a bit stuck. Plus, I've read everything on the Idratek site, plus all the FAQs on the Idratek Automated Home forum, and still really quite confused as to what components I'd actually need to get up and running, and how much it would cost. Terms like having to 'earth the wiring' left me a bit cold - not something I have any experience with.

I wish I'd given this option more thought earlier on - got swayed towards X10 due to its simplicity, but most people here are pointing out issues with reliability and having no feedback... Do you think Idratek could be installed by a complete newbie, if I did manage to figure out how to do some extra wiring?

The Idratek system is quite different to other HA solutions in that it is more concerned with automation rather than just control. You can of course use it in the same 'control' vein as X10 or CBUS but that would not be making full use of its capabilities.

It can be installed by someone with reasonable technical competence though anything interfacing to mains would likely need to be either done or signed off by a suitably qualified electrician due to the current electrical legislation. 'Earthing the wiring' is nothing complicated but more of a professional level precautionary measure. When you have a system that can easily be controlling and collecting data from 100's of devices around the home 24/7, and is intended to run with minimal user intervention, then it is wise to take every measure you are aware of to ensure reliability.

For a simple system the core components can just be an MPD module (power/network connection point), a 12Vdc supply, an IDRANet/PC interface module, some cable and connectors. You will also need the Cortex software which is free if you just want to do basic Reflex programming, but realistically you will want to run a network with Cortex so at a minimum you will need a core license. This collection of items will currently cost around £200. Obviously I haven't included the PC platform itself. As Kevin pointed out it is best to treat this as a dedicated item so that you don't have the risk of ad hoc applications causing issues. Having said this I must confess to having run my own house on a non dedicated machine for several years ....

Beyond these core components its then a question of what you want to do. If for the sake of extreme example you just wanted to control a single light then you might choose any one of various flavours of modules that contains a relay, or you might choose a dimmer module. This module then gets attached to an IDRANet network cable and to the light in question. Without anything else you'd now be able to control the light from Cortex. Most modules have general purpose digital inputs so another thing you could do is connect an off the shelf switch to the relay or dimmer module digital input and you'd then be able to affect the state of that light using that switch. This would typically be done via Cortex, i.e. the switch state will be reported to Cortex and then Cortex will send a control command back to the dimmer or relay, alternatively the interaction between switch and light can be entirely carried out in the module itself (self Reflex). If you want the light to be automated based on light level then you will need another module containing a light level sensor. This module would be physically located in a suitable sensing location and connected to the IDRANet cable. Now the light level from this module can be used by Cortex to perform a more automated light switching operation e.g. switch on when dark (or even map dimmer level to different darkness levels). It would also be possible to perform this simple gating function via Reflex alone i.e. the light level sensing module will send a direct command to the relay/dimmer module to switch on the light when dark threshold transgressed and off when a 'bright' threshold is transgressed.

If you want to remote control the light using an IR remote handset then you need an IR receiver module. If you want to remotely access the light or check its status via the web then you need an internet connection to your Cortex computer and you will need the web server license option. And so on ....

Various modules are available with multiple functionality, for example at the end of the scale a DFP module has pretty much all other module sensors, intercom, an LCD display, and 4 relay drives. So one DFP module placed in a room might give you all the sensors and control elements that you need as well as a local user interface. But in practice you will find that you will probably need more than just this in some rooms and less in others, and in some cases you may wish to centralise switching eg. star wired mains rather than ring.

But really it is important to understand what I mentioned at the outset - which is that the Idratek system is really geared towards more integrated automation without the user having to program their own logic to get things done. We like to call it 2nd generation HA

. So even though you might want to start small it is useful to have an understanding of what a fully fledged installation can do because it is not a linear expansion of functionality. For example a very important facet of the Idratek system is automation based on room occupancy inference. This feature allows you to properly automate lighting and heating in a manner which will hopefully not alienate non technophiles whilst giving you convenience and significant energy savings. But In order to achieve this you will need motion sensors in pretty much all rooms and a few door sensors would help too. Without a properly sensorised house you can do basic control like any other system, but when you have a properly sensorised house you then get a sudden jump of capability. Also, having all these sensors means you now have the basis for a very capable security system without much further effort or expense.

Not saying that this is necessarily the system for you, but hopefully my long winded answer might shed some light on some aspects of your questions.

**toscal** · 22 July 2010, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by Steelercaz View Post

Hi Toscal - I've spent a fair bit of time looking at Sonos, but unfortunately most of that time was pointing out to myself that I can't afford it! I guess it can be added later though, since it can be wireless...?

I wish I'd given this option more thought earlier on - got swayed towards X10 due to its simplicity, but most people here are pointing out issues with reliability and having no feedback...

The first Sonos node has to be connected to your network but after that its all wireless.

X10 does have feedback. Most of the modules we install Xanura or Marmitek micro modules all come with feedback except the ones that don't require a neutral. So when a micro module changes state it will transmit its status. We also have a range of X10 mini modules which can be polled to give you their status, these don't automatically send out their status when they change state. But can be useful for certain applications, like checking to see if outside lights are left on. We also have a special adapter that enables the micro modules to be fitted into a din rail cabinet.

**JonS** · 22 July 2010, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by Karam View Post

The Idratek system ... It can be installed by someone with reasonable technical competence ....is intended to run with minimal user intervention,
... I must confess to having run my own house on a non dedicated machine for several years ....
...which is that the Idratek system is really geared towards more integrated automation without the user having to program their own logic to get things done. We like to call it 2nd generation HA

. ...
... properly automate lighting and heating in a manner which will hopefully not alienate non technophiles whilst giving you convenience and significant energy savings. ...
... when you have a properly sensorised house you then get a sudden jump of capability.
Not saying that this is necessarily the system for you, but hopefully my long winded answer might shed some light on some aspects of your questions.

Hi Caroline
I started from much the same point as you a few years ago and I am still completing it, so I can confirm the lack of expertise required, but do get a friendly electrician involved early otherwise it will be tricky to get sign-off - I used one recommended on ukha_d.
For me work can be intensely busy at times and it can be months between having time to touch my Idratek system - it just works - and now with Reflex automated programming even when the non dedicated PC goes AWOL (my fault usually) the house still works with button presses rather than automation :-) I would never have had the patience to programme the system in the way Cortex provides frmo scratch so the built in automation is good too and simple enough for SWMBO + kids to use without trouble.

From what you have said the hard bit will be the install from your current position... the "sensorising" for occupancy is a core part of Idratek automation - its much the same as a comprehensive alarm system, but is is wired and the wires need to go to doors (door switch), room corners (PIRs) and light switch positions ... not places you'd put cable if you were thinking of a data network.

For multiroom audio I use a pair of amplifiers each with two switchable pairs of speakers (one in each room) with IR control for volume (bought of a bloke at work) and a squeeze box ... its not flash but it does and with the infrastructure inplace it can be upgraded as finances allow.

If poss pause the plastering until you're clear about what you want to achieve with the infrastructure. I've jotted some thoughts here in the past. http://neuralhome.wordpress.com/

HTH
JonS

Newbie, House Renovation, Suggestions pretty please?

Newbie, House Renovation, Suggestions pretty please?

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