New to CBus - some ideas/hints please

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  • Nunners
    Automated Home Jr Member
    • Dec 2004
    • 26

    New to CBus - some ideas/hints please

    I've been looking at putting in a nice multi-room lighting and other appliance control across my house, to basically improve the ability to control lights, save energy, added security and a general techieness!!!

    I've tried x10 in the past, but found it quite clunky, so when I was installing a new phone system at a dentist practice, and the builders/electricians were installing a cBus lighting control system, I was hooked! It looked quite simple - central control unit, lights fed from that, and controlled by, in this case, a central control panel.

    What I'd like to initially look at doing is moving all our main downstairs lights (lounge, dining area, hall & landing, kitchen and conservatory) onto a centrally controlled system - i.e. cBus. These would then be controlled either by a central server (i.e. timed for when we are due home from work, or coming on appropriately if we are away as a security deterant) or by a central panel, which allows the user to turn the lights on/off and indeed dim.

    In time, something I've also wanted to do is control our central heating and hot water from an intelligent source (i.e. computer)... this will time the heating coming on to heat the house for when we get home (i.e. a bit of maths based on temperate and time to heat etc), and do the same with the hot water.... I think this can be done by cBus, but no sure!

    I've got a few questions though before I start...

    - can I do the install? I'm not an electrician, but fully understand electrics, and from what I can understand, once the central unit is installed by a professional, I could then adapt the internal lighting wiring to fit in?
    - I've seen the consumer style units on letsautomate (for example) which would presumably then need an appropriate number of lighting modules and other modules for other things (as above), is that correct?

    Am I barking up the right tree, or am I completely missing the point? Any helpful suggestions would be welcome!

    Many thanks
    Nunners
  • toscal
    Moderator
    • Oct 2005
    • 2061

    #2
    Have you made the leap to CBUS yet as you may want to take a look at what the Idratek system can do. They have a forum on here too.
    I would try and get an electrician on board if you can, preferably one with at least network cabling knowledge and experience. May save you time and money in the long run. Plus if you are in the UK how will part P affect you.
    Also decide what you need the system to do now and then think about possible future needs as well, and base your installation on these things. Allow for easy expansion. No good getting a consumer unit that can hold 6 lighting modules only to find out in a years time that you need another 2 modules for something else. Take time to think about how you are going to wire all this up and how you will run the mains wiring.
    If you have plans for the house then scan them into the pc and then start drawing possible wiring paths.This will give you a good idea of how much cable you will need and potential problems with the paths.
    Often HA is a compromise between what you want the system to do and money and getting the balance right can be difficult.
    But that's what this forum is for.
    IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT WITH A HAMMER, YOU'VE GOT AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM.
    Renovation Spain Blog

    Comment

    • i-Home
      Automated Home Jr Member
      • Feb 2011
      • 23

      #3
      Originally posted by Nunners View Post
      ................
      - can I do the install? I'm not an electrician, but fully understand electrics, and from what I can understand, once the central unit is installed by a professional, I could then adapt the internal lighting wiring to fit in?
      - I've seen the consumer style units on letsautomate (for example) which would presumably then need an appropriate number of lighting modules and other modules for other things (as above), is that correct?

      Am I barking up the right tree, or am I completely missing the point? Any helpful suggestions would be welcome!
      Hi

      Fitting a cbus or similar system can sometimes be more complicated than you'd think, but that's not to say you couldn't give it a go. I'd recommend you plan the mains wiring considering earth fault protection (i.e. RCD devices) so as if a fault is detected you only lose power to a small section of the panel.

      Once you have all the wiring done, you can program up all the kit using a laptop and PCI unit (usb to serial interface into system). Again this can be more difficult than you'd expect, and is best done after a little planning on numbering conventions and how you are to use scenes and schedules.

      Have a look thru my flickr photos (link below) to see how we've laid out various panels (called Energy Control Panel's [ECP] by Clipsal).

      HTH

      Stephen
      www.i-home.co.uk | Our Flickr Installation Gallery

      Comment

      • FrankMcAlinden
        Automated Home Guru
        • Feb 2004
        • 109

        #4
        Originally posted by i-Home View Post
        Hi

        Fitting a cbus or similar system can sometimes be more complicated than you'd think, but that's not to say you couldn't give it a go. I'd recommend you plan the mains wiring considering earth fault protection (i.e. RCD devices) so as if a fault is detected you only lose power to a small section of the panel.

        Once you have all the wiring done, you can program up all the kit using a laptop and PCI unit (usb to serial interface into system). Again this can be more difficult than you'd expect, and is best done after a little planning on numbering conventions and how you are to use scenes and schedules.

        Have a look thru my flickr photos (link below) to see how we've laid out various panels (called Energy Control Panel's [ECP] by Clipsal).

        HTH

        Stephen
        Hi Stephen

        Had a look at your installs ...very nice ...the Hollywood CBUS install looks really good...The alarm install i looked at could do with a few cable ties ;-)....Looks like you work all over the North ....
        BTW...Whats The ECP panels that Clipsal make...??
        Thanks
        Frank
        Home of FirM - the Multi Zone IR Transport System
        http://www.armaghelectrical.com.au/index.html

        Comment

        • i-Home
          Automated Home Jr Member
          • Feb 2011
          • 23

          #5
          Originally posted by FrankMcAlinden View Post
          Looks like you work all over the North ....
          BTW...Whats The ECP panels that Clipsal make...??
          Thanks
          Frank
          Hi Frank
          Yip, we work all over the North and into bordering southern counties too.
          The ECP panels/boxes we use are nearly all made by SAIP. Apart from the Lisbane install where we used the new Hager Invicta boxes, but I wouldn't recommend them - not nearly as good as expected for the money. The blomin' front panels cutouts aren't even big enough to let the CBus output units stick though (on the width that is). Evidently 12mod + 4xmcb's are wider than 16x 1mod MCB's as we had to elongate the front panel slots for the 3 rows on the lower LH side of this panel -


          ..... and the Hager boxes don't have any cable management posts/clips to secure internal cables to. I had to use lots of stick on cable tie pads.

          I find the SAIP new style boxes best to work with. The old style boxes are slightly smaller and useful if space is limited.
          New style boxes -


          Old style boxes -


          Stephen
          www.i-home.co.uk | Our Flickr Installation Gallery

          Comment

          • FrankMcAlinden
            Automated Home Guru
            • Feb 2004
            • 109

            #6
            Originally posted by i-Home View Post
            Hi Frank
            Yip, we work all over the North and into bordering southern counties too.
            The ECP panels/boxes we use are nearly all made by SAIP. Apart from the Lisbane install where we used the new Hager Invicta boxes, but I wouldn't recommend them - not nearly as good as expected for the money. The blomin' front panels cutouts aren't even big enough to let the CBus output units stick though (on the width that is). Evidently 12mod + 4xmcb's are wider than 16x 1mod MCB's as we had to elongate the front panel slots for the 3 rows on the lower LH side of this panel -


            ..... and the Hager boxes don't have any cable management posts/clips to secure internal cables to. I had to use lots of stick on cable tie pads.

            I find the SAIP new style boxes best to work with. The old style boxes are slightly smaller and useful if space is limited.
            New style boxes -


            Old style boxes -


            Stephen
            Hi Stephen

            Those panels look good....Does each Clipsal Dimmer/relay module have their own rcd...??

            What are the terminal strips in the middle used for...??

            Looks like your protecting your Dimmer outputs with c/b,s....Does this work ok in practice...?? ie do they operate quick enough to save the onboard triac...???...

            The lighting cable is it flex or t.p.s ...???...Sorry for all the questions just curious...

            Thanks again
            Frank
            Home of FirM - the Multi Zone IR Transport System
            http://www.armaghelectrical.com.au/index.html

            Comment

            • i-Home
              Automated Home Jr Member
              • Feb 2011
              • 23

              #7
              Originally posted by FrankMcAlinden View Post
              Those panels look good....Does each Clipsal Dimmer/relay module have their own rcd...??

              What are the terminal strips in the middle used for...??

              Looks like your protecting your Dimmer outputs with c/b,s....Does this work ok in practice...?? ie do they operate quick enough to save the onboard triac...???...

              The lighting cable is it flex or t.p.s ...???...Sorry for all the questions just curious...
              Hi Frank

              Each cbus dimmer o/p runs through its own mcb either 1A or 2A. But most relay o/p's do not, although we often run specific external circuits through their own mcb's or rcbo's where they are more likely to give trouble in the future (nearly always with water getting into external items).

              Each dimmer and relay usually gets its own mcb on the supply side, and more often now each o/p unit is supplied by a rcbo instead of a mcb.

              The terminal strips (din rail connectors) are for the joining together of the neutrals and earths of the loads.

              Regarding the mcb type, yes they are mostly C curve's, as its very difficult (and expensive) to get B curve ones. Out of all the dimmer units we've fitted only 1 channel ever has developed a fault, and I wouldn't even say that was caused by the load.

              Lastly, ... the lighting cable. You ask if it was tps or flex. Perhaps you've been "abroad" quite a while - is tps a common term in Oz for T&E? Anyway, almost always the loads are wired in grey 1.5mm T&E. Sometimes the links between fittings are wired in flex, but mostly T&E as well. Why you ask?

              Stephen
              www.i-home.co.uk | Our Flickr Installation Gallery

              Comment

              • FrankMcAlinden
                Automated Home Guru
                • Feb 2004
                • 109

                #8
                Originally posted by i-Home View Post
                Hi Frank

                Each cbus dimmer o/p runs through its own mcb either 1A or 2A. But most relay o/p's do not, although we often run specific external circuits through their own mcb's or rcbo's where they are more likely to give trouble in the future (nearly always with water getting into external items).

                Each dimmer and relay usually gets its own mcb on the supply side, and more often now each o/p unit is supplied by a rcbo instead of a mcb.

                The terminal strips (din rail connectors) are for the joining together of the neutrals and earths of the loads.

                Regarding the mcb type, yes they are mostly C curve's, as its very difficult (and expensive) to get B curve ones. Out of all the dimmer units we've fitted only 1 channel ever has developed a fault, and I wouldn't even say that was caused by the load.

                Lastly, ... the lighting cable. You ask if it was tps or flex. Perhaps you've been "abroad" quite a while - is tps a common term in Oz for T&E? Anyway, almost always the loads are wired in grey 1.5mm T&E. Sometimes the links between fittings are wired in flex, but mostly T&E as well. Why you ask?

                Stephen
                Hi Stephen

                Re the terminals.....Using spring terminals ???...

                Good idea on the rcbo,s on the outputs a bit more expensive though....??

                Yes i,ve been away quite a while (since 1977) ... here they also call it T+E ....From memory it use to be white sheathed ..??....I ask because of the colour,s used....If i,m correct your T+E is using the European colour,s ???...Here in Oz our T+E is still red for Active (Live) and Black for Neutral....
                Thanks for the feedback
                Frank
                Home of FirM - the Multi Zone IR Transport System
                http://www.armaghelectrical.com.au/index.html

                Comment

                • i-Home
                  Automated Home Jr Member
                  • Feb 2011
                  • 23

                  #9
                  Originally posted by FrankMcAlinden View Post
                  Re the terminals.....Using spring terminals ???...

                  Good idea on the rcbo,s on the outputs a bit more expensive though....??

                  Yes i,ve been away quite a while (since 1977) ... here they also call it T+E ....From memory it use to be white sheathed ..??....I ask because of the colour,s used....If i,m correct your T+E is using the European colour,s ???...Here in Oz our T+E is still red for Active (Live) and Black for Neutral....
                  The DIN rail connectors I use are screw down ones but I'd be keen to try using the spring terminal type sometime. I had been using Legrand ones as they had lots of accessories but recently changed over to Telemecanique as they use really long bridging bars making it neat to connect all the earths together (and neutrals where rcbo's aren't being used).

                  The RCBO's certainly are more expensive then MCB's, but they've came down in price a lot of the last year. MCB's can cost as little as £1 each with descent makes costing about £3, with RCBO's costing £15-£25 each, but one make recently that we tried was less than £10 each, and seem to work ok so far anyway.

                  1977! I was only 2 then You ever come back much?
                  99.9% of all T&E is grey now. It is very hard to find white T&E but it can be got but not as a stock item. We've a big house (15K sq.ft.) to completely wire this summer for power and cbus amongst everything else, and I plan to use white & grey T&E to differentiate mains systems.

                  And yes our colours were "harmonised" with European colours a few years back, so red/blue/yellow/black are now brown/grey/black/blue.

                  Stephen
                  www.i-home.co.uk | Our Flickr Installation Gallery

                  Comment

                  • chris_j_hunter
                    Automated Home Legend
                    • Dec 2007
                    • 1713

                    #10
                    Stephen -

                    thanks for posting all those example Nodes - plenty of variety there !

                    any tips / lessons learnt ?

                    'curious to know how much advance planning you find is necessary, in terms of Node content & layout ... and if you think a mechanical label printer (eg: Rhino 3000) would be help or hinderance ?

                    we're about one-third wired-up now (power & light, Cat-5e FTP & UTP, Cat-6 UTP, CT100 digital, etc), so we're beginning to think about how in-detail to arrange the nodes - it would be nice if the result was presentable !

                    one suggestion we've had is to use some of the UniStrut system components for mounting enclosures & help with managing cables ... ??

                    Chris
                    Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 24 April 2011, 05:54 PM.
                    Our self-build - going further with HA...

                    Comment

                    • i-Home
                      Automated Home Jr Member
                      • Feb 2011
                      • 23

                      #11
                      Originally posted by chris_j_hunter View Post
                      'curious to know how much advance planning you find is necessary, in terms of Node content & layout ... and if you think a mechanical label printer (eg: Rhino 3000) would be help or hinderance ?

                      we're about one-third wired-up now (power & light, Cat-5e FTP & UTP, Cat-6 UTP, CT100 digital, etc), so we're beginning to think about how in-detail to arrange the nodes - it would be nice if the result was presentable !

                      one suggestion we've had is to use some of the UniStrut system components for mounting enclosures & help with managing cables ... ??
                      Hi Chris

                      There's a reasonable amount of time spent planning the head-end, obviously more if there's more going into it. To make sure everything fits in and how to arrange it all. You don't want to run out of space when 80% through as re-arranging everything wouldn't be a pleasant experience. Certainly a label printer is useful but I wouldn't worry about printing labels until everything is wired and tested.

                      I'd expect most better installers have their preferred way of fitting out so as to leave the panel and other aspects of the head-end presentable and manageable. You learn from experience what works, looks good and leaves access for future modification. A common mistake is not leaving enough room for everything and having little room to fit the kit you need in and having no room for expansion.



                      The LV head-end shown here took up the entire tall cabinet and some of the one beside it, and the kitchen company owner found it hard to believe me when I told him how much space we'd need. Just the other day I looked at this space again to see how to free up some space, as the client is adding a HDMI matrix in and we're already more than full up in the cabinet visible.

                      Stephen
                      www.i-home.co.uk | Our Flickr Installation Gallery

                      Comment

                      • chris_j_hunter
                        Automated Home Legend
                        • Dec 2007
                        • 1713

                        #12
                        that's an interesting example - our (1980s) hi-fi cupboard is a bit like that - not on the same scale, of course, but shelves & space at the back for cables to drop ... when occasionally it's necessary to do something in there, components have to be pulled-forward & heads ventured into the deep, to plug & unplug ... heat's also an issue, we find, because we didn't really allow enough air-space between components & shelves, and the through-flow is limited by air intake & exhaust issues - all things we're hoping to get right this time round ...

                        we did draw-up a list of what's to go in the nodes (one alcove per floor, so space not generous) but even before we've started to fit them things are being added, so we can see problems dawning - even though we're not working at anything like the scale of your examples !

                        most HA modules, in our case, will be distributed about the house, with just a few DIN-rail mounted, but the needs of things like patch-panels & for small UPSs & transformers seem to be growing, little by little ...
                        Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 25 April 2011, 08:32 AM.
                        Our self-build - going further with HA...

                        Comment

                        • FrankMcAlinden
                          Automated Home Guru
                          • Feb 2004
                          • 109

                          #13
                          Originally posted by i-Home View Post
                          The DIN rail connectors I use are screw down ones but I'd be keen to try using the spring terminal type sometime. I had been using Legrand ones as they had lots of accessories but recently changed over to Telemecanique as they use really long bridging bars making it neat to connect all the earths together (and neutrals where rcbo's aren't being used).

                          The RCBO's certainly are more expensive then MCB's, but they've came down in price a lot of the last year. MCB's can cost as little as £1 each with descent makes costing about £3, with RCBO's costing £15-£25 each, but one make recently that we tried was less than £10 each, and seem to work ok so far anyway.

                          1977! I was only 2 then You ever come back much?
                          99.9% of all T&E is grey now. It is very hard to find white T&E but it can be got but not as a stock item. We've a big house (15K sq.ft.) to completely wire this summer for power and cbus amongst everything else, and I plan to use white & grey T&E to differentiate mains systems.

                          And yes our colours were "harmonised" with European colours a few years back, so red/blue/yellow/black are now brown/grey/black/blue.

                          Stephen
                          Hi Stephen

                          The spring terminals are my favourite , haved used them a lot doing industrial work...Also what i like about them is the bridging links ,they are not strips so you can add more easily...

                          Just watch those cheap rcbo,s...Recently a brand in Oz was taken off the shelves of the wholesalers no reason given...but i have heard it failed at 1ka ,was rated for 6ka.....

                          No havnt been back at all.....Wife has been back a few times and is going for a few weeks later this year...Sister is heading over next month for a wedding....

                          I see some old switchboards here with Phase colours red ,yellow ,blue...... but they changed at some stage to red,white ,blue ..for phases...Wish they would "Harmonise" to European colours here....

                          What sort of cable do you use for 3 phase ??...Here we use "Orange Circular"
                          You can also use a t+e along with a twin active.....

                          Are you allowed to use t+e cable for switching...???......Reason i ask is ..I purchased
                          Chris Kitcher,s "Practical Guide to Inspecting,Testing and Certification of Electrical Installations" and there,s a pic on page 66 which shows a light switch with t+e connected to it ..so they are using the neutral wire as a switch wire...?? Here you would have to tape or heat shrink the neutral an active colour.....
                          Thanks
                          Frank
                          Home of FirM - the Multi Zone IR Transport System
                          http://www.armaghelectrical.com.au/index.html

                          Comment

                          • i-Home
                            Automated Home Jr Member
                            • Feb 2011
                            • 23

                            #14
                            Originally posted by FrankMcAlinden View Post
                            The spring terminals are my favourite , haved used them a lot doing industrial work...Also what i like about them is the bridging links ,they are not strips so you can add more easily...

                            Just watch those cheap rcbo,s...Recently a brand in Oz was taken off the shelves of the wholesalers no reason given...but i have heard it failed at 1ka ,was rated for 6ka.....
                            ...
                            What sort of cable do you use for 3 phase ??...Here we use "Orange Circular"
                            You can also use a t+e along with a twin active.....

                            Are you allowed to use t+e cable for switching...???......Reason i ask is ..I purchased
                            Chris Kitcher,s "Practical Guide to Inspecting,Testing and Certification of Electrical Installations" and there,s a pic on page 66 which shows a light switch with t+e connected to it ..so they are using the neutral wire as a switch wire...?? Here you would have to tape or heat shrink the neutral an active colour.....
                            What make of terminals are u using? Interested to see what the "bridging links" look like as I'm still thinking of strips.

                            Ref the RCBO's -- yes, I'm wary of cheap ones but it can be hard to pass them if you haven't priced the more expensive ones and the cheaper ones being half the cost. And we'll often have protection feeding the RCBO's.

                            Ref 3Ph cable - just whatever suits the application, i.e. singles, 3c&E or 4 core cable, of the correct csa & sheath and preferably the correct colours inside, although you can still sleeve the cores at either end where they are connected. Similar to what you said regarding using T&E instead of twin live/brown.

                            There was one cbus install we did a few yrs back where the spark ordered and fitted loads of 1.5mm T&E, but in fact he was delivered 1.5mm twin live by mistake and never noticed until they had run in many 100's of metres. So rather than replace it all they sleeved/taped one leg of the twin live to use as neutral.

                            Stephen
                            www.i-home.co.uk | Our Flickr Installation Gallery

                            Comment

                            • FrankMcAlinden
                              Automated Home Guru
                              • Feb 2004
                              • 109

                              #15
                              Originally posted by i-Home View Post
                              What make of terminals are u using? Interested to see what the "bridging links" look like as I'm still thinking of strips.

                              Ref the RCBO's -- yes, I'm wary of cheap ones but it can be hard to pass them if you haven't priced the more expensive ones and the cheaper ones being half the cost. And we'll often have protection feeding the RCBO's.

                              Ref 3Ph cable - just whatever suits the application, i.e. singles, 3c&E or 4 core cable, of the correct csa & sheath and preferably the correct colours inside, although you can still sleeve the cores at either end where they are connected. Similar to what you said regarding using T&E instead of twin live/brown.

                              There was one cbus install we did a few yrs back where the spark ordered and fitted loads of 1.5mm T&E, but in fact he was delivered 1.5mm twin live by mistake and never noticed until they had run in many 100's of metres. So rather than replace it all they sleeved/taped one leg of the twin live to use as neutral.

                              Stephen
                              Hi Stephen

                              The terminals im referring to are Wago...check out the link....This link shows the bridging links...

                              WAGO - Innovative products for automation and connection technology as well as individual solutions for your industry. Find out more here!


                              These could be useful
                              WAGO - Innovative products for automation and connection technology as well as individual solutions for your industry. Find out more here!


                              Frank
                              Home of FirM - the Multi Zone IR Transport System
                              http://www.armaghelectrical.com.au/index.html

                              Comment

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