Automating our boiler; a beginner's query.

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  • Plavixo
    Automated Home Lurker
    • Jan 2011
    • 1

    Automating our boiler; a beginner's query.

    Hi there!

    My partner (DB) and I are home-automation newbies and we'd really appriciate some guidance.

    Background: We are both recent graduates from IT related degrees; DB is very software capble, I'm working in computerised-education/eLearning. So, we're pretty technology capable, but new to the home automation scene, particuarly to the hardware side.

    Situation: We own our home (a 1930's terrace) and we are slowly modernising it, so running cables and working with basic electrics is within our remit. We have a Windows server in the loft, a iDevice each and several laptops in various states of operation! Remote access to the server is set up, with vpn and remote desktop. Our wifi is strong and reliable throughout the property.

    As our first step into home automation, we would like to hook our boiler up with the intention of basic programming the of heating (on at 7am, off at 9am, on at 1630pm etc) and to be able to turn the heating on/off remotely.

    The boiler is a Worcester combi gas boiler from 2006. We have no plumbing experience, so we don't yet know how to fit a normal thermostat, much less a wifi one. But we are willing to learn! : )

    We'd prefer to interact with the thermostat on our own network, rather that pay a subscription to a web-portal.

    I've trawled these forums, and a couple of others round the web (that I've found). I haven't found one that fits the bill perfectly. Our budget is flexible, depending on the features available, but we'd like suggestions from the whole price spectrum. We may look later at including lighting etc into our system.

    Does anyone have any suggestions, or entry-level resources you can point me to?

    Thanks!
    P
  • TimH
    Automated Home Legend
    • Feb 2004
    • 509

    #3
    You might like to consider a WebBrick for this application (http://www.webbricksystems.com/produ...style=mainlist). I can't find the datasheet I was looking for but ISTR that the WebBrick can support a 1-Wire temperature network (to take the place of conventional thermostats) and also includes mains-voltage relays (for the boiler switching).

    Often it is simplest to leave the existing boiler controls as-is and tap into the switched outputs from the thermostats and time clock unit. That way, it's relatively easy to revert to "standard" controls when you come to sell the house, or if you rent it out, etc.

    If you want to spend a bit more money then CBus and Idratek would be my top two to look at. Either way, also have a look at xAP (www.xapautomation.org) as a community-developed, independent control layer to span all of your devices.

    HTH,

    Tim.
    Last edited by TimH; 24 January 2011, 02:37 PM. Reason: typo
    My Flickr Photos

    Comment

    • toscal
      Moderator
      • Oct 2005
      • 2061

      #4
      A few more forum links that you might want to look at.

      IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT WITH A HAMMER, YOU'VE GOT AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM.
      Renovation Spain Blog

      Comment

      • chris_j_hunter
        Automated Home Legend
        • Dec 2007
        • 1713

        #5
        adding to Tim's xAP thoughts ...



        BTW, anyone know of a WebBrick link that actually tells us something about how it works & how it's used ... their web-site is one of the most frustrating we've visited, in terms of promising to tell us something & actually not ! ?
        Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 22 January 2011, 11:13 AM.
        Our self-build - going further with HA...

        Comment

        • TimH
          Automated Home Legend
          • Feb 2004
          • 509

          #6
          Originally posted by chris_j_hunter View Post
          BTW, anyone know of a WebBrick link that actually tells us something about how it works & how it's used ... their web-site is one of the most frustrating we've visited, in terms of promising to tell us something & actually not ! ?
          Yes, I found it frustrating too, particularly as I remember seeing "real-life" examples on there (a simple temperature controlled fan idea, and an ajax / shockwave(?) user interface, etc.).

          I did a bit more digging and I think that sort of stuff has now moved to a forum: http://community.webbricksystems.com/

          I haven't checked through there very much but it seems to be the sort of useful information we'd be after

          HTH,

          Tim.
          My Flickr Photos

          Comment

          • TimH
            Automated Home Legend
            • Feb 2004
            • 509

            #7
            Of course X10 can do this too, see the link below for an example;


            HTH,

            Tim.
            My Flickr Photos

            Comment

            • kris2lee
              Automated Home Jr Member
              • Mar 2010
              • 19

              #8
              Vendor support

              I think that you should also consider that how many companies do support the platform.

              When you choose a system that is provided only by one company then you find yourself in the situation that is called a vendor lock-in.

              Comment

              • chris_j_hunter
                Automated Home Legend
                • Dec 2007
                • 1713

                #9
                then again, single supplier situations can often mean fewer problems & better support ...
                Our self-build - going further with HA...

                Comment

                • kris2lee
                  Automated Home Jr Member
                  • Mar 2010
                  • 19

                  #10
                  Originally posted by chris_j_hunter View Post
                  then again, single supplier situations can often mean fewer problems & better support ...
                  Well, let’s look it from the another angle.

                  Today we get it granted that we have different devices we can use to play the content on TV – VCR, DVD-player, Blu-Ray player, NET-streamer, SAT-receiver and so on and so on, you name it. Would we have it without a common and standardized local AV delivery protocol?

                  I think that you can already imagine where I’m pointing. Would you prefer the Sony video player that can play only on Sony TV and only Sony media?

                  Home automation is not different.

                  Another thing is the specialization. With common protocol it is possible that one company does make one part of the system very good and another does some other part and I can take the best (or one with the most reasonable price). This also allows more niche products. One company just can’t make everything or everything good.

                  Finally there is support. Companies tend to come and go. Yes, there are some really big and old companies but they also tend to discontinue some of their product lines when they find something more profitable.

                  With common and open protocol there is a bigger probability that in the future somebody still does make a replacement product. And with home automation we are talking about years, tens of years even maybe.

                  Now I’m not saying that single company cannot provide a good support. But I think that it cannot be taken axiomatically. Single company can also fail miserably with it and it is possible for bigger group to provide excellent support with some common supporting entity.

                  So this is something to consider when you make the choice.

                  Comment

                  • chris_j_hunter
                    Automated Home Legend
                    • Dec 2007
                    • 1713

                    #11
                    yep, agree / don't disagree - many ways can work !

                    perception's a big part of it, too, and how carefully the protocols are managed ... and spreading risk is also a big point ...

                    then again, most of this sort of thing is niche - ie: the world doesn't always fall-apart if they fail !

                    when we look at what works well for us, about the house, open free-for-alls don't figure highly - hassle / chaos / failure to deliver often feature ...

                    every way's a compromise, has its merits, pros, cons, risks, benefits - nothing's perfect ...

                    still, there are quite a few possible systems to choose from, some very open, some quite closed, some in-between, and none able to do it all ...

                    how about a short-list : EIB/KNX - EnOcean - C-Bus - Idratek - Comfort - Dupline - Nice - X10 - Hager Tebis - Hometronic - Rako - xAP - Netiom - Arduino - Cebek - Velleman - Picaxe ... and more ... each with benefits & omissions, each requiring different levels of involvement, and offering different degrees of freedom ... everyone's choice will be different !
                    Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 30 January 2011, 11:01 AM.
                    Our self-build - going further with HA...

                    Comment

                    • TimH
                      Automated Home Legend
                      • Feb 2004
                      • 509

                      #12
                      Originally posted by kris2lee View Post
                      I think that you should also consider that how many companies do support the platform.

                      When you choose a system that is provided only by one company then you find yourself in the situation that is called a vendor lock-in.
                      I do get your point re: sole sourcing (and I've read your later reply too). Which solution would you recommend to avoid a lock-in situation?

                      Cheers,

                      Tim.
                      My Flickr Photos

                      Comment

                      • kris2lee
                        Automated Home Jr Member
                        • Mar 2010
                        • 19

                        #13
                        Unfortunatelly I do not know a really good answer.

                        I would say that it is KNX because it is supported by really big amount of companies (over 100) but it is rather expensive (specially when you do not look around and take what is provided by the big and famous companies and especially when you compare it with the X10).

                        What makes it specially expensive for DIY is that you do need the configuration software. Its licence does cost 900 euro (without VAT) and you need this every time you want to change something in your configuration.

                        This is no big deal for the installer who does many installations in one month. So you can cleary see how KNX business is meant to work.

                        There is now (from about last year) actually a light version that does cost 100 euro. When you can stay within 20 device limit then it would be an option too.

                        Of course when you do choose KNX and when you do not plan your wiring then you are limited to the KNX system. It has huge support but you are still limited. It is because it is the BUS system - every device is connected on single BUS and you can not use that wiring for something else. This is not a problem with the cable in the fuse box but with the cable you run around the building.

                        It is possible to reduce this risk. For example when you want to automate the lights and the heating then do not connect them on the single cable. Run separate cables and connect them in the fuse box.

                        Another issue is that there is no English speaking KNX community yet (or I'm not aware of it). KNX is quite popular in Germany (from where it mainly is from) and there is quite active user forum about it (http://knx-user-forum.de/) but its main language is German (you can still ask the questions in English and get the reply).

                        KNX is also not the silver bullet (yet). For example its support for security system is quite weak. It does not support functions that are common in the evolved security systems and the devices are expensive (100 euro for the KNX connected PIR sensor is way over the limit I think).

                        So it would be more reasonable to have non KNX security system. For example Cytech (Comfort) has a KNX gateway. It did look really nice (the gateway) but the Cytech system is limited to 64 inputs. This should be quite enough usually but I did run over it.

                        Also KNX is not widelly supported by the heating device makers. This can be worked around and it is usually non issue. And with the heating devices I mean the boilers and heat pumps etc. The room control is excelent with the KNX and several companies do support KNX as an boiler or heat pump control option.

                        When you do not mind the wireless then you could also look into the Z-Wave and Zigbee. I have not investicated it much because I think that wireless systems are unsecure at least in the long run and quite silly (you still have to run the wire for the power or constantly change the batteries (when you do not choose EnOcean)).

                        Now what I really do not suggest is taking the system that is supported only by one company.

                        I have a sad story to tell you about the Velleman (makes Velbus). Friend of mind does have Velbus system in his house and this is actually how I got into the home automation.

                        So I first checked the Velbus. He told me that he got the dimmers by 45 euro. When I did check the prices then the price had raised to 110 euro. This made me thinking.

                        Several months ago he told me that his neighbor also did choose the Velbus and is quite unhappy with it. He did somehow manage to get the dimmers with the lower price first but needed more later. Now it appeared that the cheaper dimmers were the previous version and are not available anymore. The new version is much more expensive and instead of 300W it supports only 250W load. But he does not have any other options.

                        Friend of mine also told me that one of his dimmers died. When he opened the case then he found out that the fuse was broken. He told me that it was actually clearly on the limit. But to make things worse they also soldered it. So to fix this he must desolder the broken fuse and solder new one. He could also buy a new dimmer (with higher price and lower load support). Or atleast he still can do this today.

                        With KNX you can choose dimmers from about 10 (or even more) companies. They have dimmers for every kind of loads.

                        So my advice is that stay far away from the products that work only with the same company products.

                        Do not try to take everything from one company but choose products that are the most suitable for the job (or with the most reasonable price). You could even mix different systems but when you do then count in the integration cost.

                        Comment

                        • chris_j_hunter
                          Automated Home Legend
                          • Dec 2007
                          • 1713

                          #14
                          ISTM, a combination of Idratek + xAP + Netiom-xAP might resolve nearly all those issues ...

                          we very nearly went for EIB/KNX - good quality, expensive, but not as smart as Idratek, or as well supported ...
                          Our self-build - going further with HA...

                          Comment

                          • kris2lee
                            Automated Home Jr Member
                            • Mar 2010
                            • 19

                            #15
                            Originally posted by Plavixo View Post
                            Does anyone have any suggestions, or entry-level resources you can point me to?
                            Check these links about KNX.



                            This is some story about one DIY KNX installation (it's quite old, from 2006, but it is on this website).



                            This page contains KNX organisation publications about their and their members doings. This website contains also some other usable information.



                            This is one horrible website with frames but author of this website has right that there is not much information about KNX available (in English).

                            Click on the "General information" and then on "Introduction to the system".



                            This is should be also mentioned. When you want to dive deeper into the system then it might be good to check the websites of the manufactors.



                            This is German online shop mainly for KNX stuff with quite good prices.



                            This is UK KNX online shop.

                            Shop online for KNX products, components and training from Ivory Egg, specialists in all KNX control products for intelligent buildings.


                            This is last shop owners website that contains also quite usable information.



                            And finally, this is open hardware version of the KNX (this is not completely in English).

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