Retrofitting Idratek in soon to be our house

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  • simbarr1
    Automated Home Lurker
    • Oct 2007
    • 8

    #16
    Ring mains and automation

    Well seeing as I am also about to retrofit idratek into an old solid walled house (as well as a nice easy extension) I thought I would add my 2p, like all good bystanders I'll change the question a bit to muddy the waters. The short answer is um don't do it. As has been said most 13A wall sockets either power temporary things liker vacuum cleaners or permanent things like hifis or clock radios, neither of which are usefully turned on and off remotely. If they have poor standby ratings replace them it will be cheaper than the rewire anyway.

    So far in my plan the only things I want to switch from a sockets are lights and all of these can easily be done via a single round pin plug. Ring mains also tend to be noisy and are now basically considered a bad idea in the new IEE regs anyway. If the sparky is tearing up your walls I would suggest you ask him to look into breaking the ring main and creating several spurs. Not always as hard as you think once the floor boards are up.

    Another even simpler option is rf sockets (I plan to reuse some homeeasy sockets and control them from an HAH hub). I might even tie in some Idratek DIO to allow reflex control.

    Al tough I have just had an idea: what about a fused spur with flex? As far as I know this is still allowed and would be compliant as long as fuse rating is clearly marked externally. Of course your device would be made permanent but surely it would be anyway if you have gone to the trouble of automating it?

    Just a thought

    Simon

    Comment

    • Gumby
      Moderator
      • May 2004
      • 437

      #17
      Originally posted by Geps View Post
      It's an valid point because technically yes, but the IEE regs are deemed to be safe, good practice which is the legal requirement....so to do something different from what they specify would place the burden on you to prove it's safe as I see it.
      Exactly. And it's going to be harder to find a sparky that will deviate from the IEE regs, partly because for insurance reasons. However, I made this point because the IEE regs can't cover all conditions and tend to lag technology (there is very little consideration of control and telecomms in IEE regs), so there is a potential to handle things differently.

      There are some sparkies around who have specialised in HA installs. Also, it's worth discussing any plans with BCO before you start to discover their attitude to it all, their approach can differ significantly because HA is still a very uncommon installation. And in a retrofit BCO may not be involved if the sparky is signing off the works.
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      www.gumbrell.com

      Comment

      • Gumby
        Moderator
        • May 2004
        • 437

        #18
        Originally posted by Geps View Post
        Not at all, I'm saying the illegal aspect is providing a circuit which can't handle the potential load from the socket (13A) and then lowering the values of circuit protection to suit. In that example, you have something that can handle the load and just changing the circuit protection.

        A hypothetical is that you're away for a businesss trip, SWMBO is at load and (without wanting to sound ***ist ) is vacuuming. The vacuum gets blocked and draws alittle extra current which pops the 10A fuse. She calls an electrician who has no reason to believe the circuit can't handle 13A and puts in a 13A fuse.
        I think you are reading too much into it. I've never found anything in the regs that says the circuit and protection behind a 13A socket has to be rated at >13A. It might be an inconvenient practice for the reasons you have identified, but I don't believe it is illegal, especially if the socket is labelled correctly. 5A and 3A round pin plugs are not usually fused, so it's not as simple as saying they indicate lower current.

        The principle of the regulations is that the circuit has to be capable of handling at least the fault current limited by the nearest upstream protective device.

        In your hypothetical case I think the SRH fusing is sufficiently unusual for the sparky to think something different is going on. And, since the Building Regs require adequate documentation of modifications they could then refer to the documentation.
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        www.gumbrell.com

        Comment

        • Gumby
          Moderator
          • May 2004
          • 437

          #19
          Originally posted by Geps View Post
          Again to be really pedantic, it's actually extra low voltage. 230V is classed as low voltage and so if you ask that question to an electrician, they could think you're talking about mains.
          Agreed, that's really pedantic; especially as I was echoing previous colloquial use.

          It is certainly worth pointing out to a sparky or BCO that the nominal supply is 12V, I think it's usually set a bit higher at 13.8V on the big power units to allow for a bit of volt drop.

          And an interesting and related question is whether an Idratek installation is SELV, PELV or FELV, since that can have a bearing on what is permitted under the regs. Sorry, I meant under BS 7671.
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          www.gumbrell.com

          Comment

          • Gumby
            Moderator
            • May 2004
            • 437

            #20
            Originally posted by Geps View Post
            AS for the safe zone comments, I'm not sure it's that difficult.....if you run wires from beneath the floor to under the pattress you meet the safe zone requirements and obtain 200mm+ separation whilst also saving on cable as the drops from the pattress to the floor are shorter than the ceiling
            As long as you don't have solid floors.

            It's is true that if you run mains and Idratek control into different sides of the back box it works out very nicely. That is why SRH's next to existing doubles are convenient. Mains comes in sideways, Idratek from top or bottom. Bottom is better since it can come straight into the Idratek insulation box.

            If you are chasing walls then you can run mains and Idratek side by side in a vertical drop into the typical two holes in the top (bottom) of a single pattress, separately sheath them and the only point you have to think about is the short distance where the Cat-5 shares the back box with mains.
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            www.gumbrell.com

            Comment

            • Gumby
              Moderator
              • May 2004
              • 437

              #21
              Originally posted by Geps View Post
              I'm starting to reach the point of installing the sockets on my Idratek install and I'm sure there must be an easier way to install it. The of doubling up sockets with FCU and Idratek modules doesn't appeal. If I find a method to save on just one I'll be sure to report back.
              Another scheme that hasn't been mentioned but can be considered, especially in a total rewire scenario, is to provide controlled power outlets based on radials from a fusebox or intermediate distribution box. Each outlet can be individually switched at the distribution box by either the DIN mount 13A rated jobbies, or contactors controlled from Idratek relays (or perhaps DIOs if the contactors are lightweight). Circuit protection as appropriate.
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              www.gumbrell.com

              Comment

              • Gumby
                Moderator
                • May 2004
                • 437

                #22
                Originally posted by eddr View Post
                Uh oh what have I started!
                So it looks like really my only options:

                To leave uncontrolled 'twin' sockets and run a spur with a single controlled socket which would have to be clearly marked so nobody plugged a heater/hoover into it or risk blowing the 10amp fuse!!

                OR

                Have another two boxes next to the twin sockets (which would become singles) - This means four boxes per two sockets.... I'm drawn to the option above really, but controlling all sockets would be ideal.... hmmm
                OR the radial scheme I have mentioned.
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                www.gumbrell.com

                Comment

                • Gumby
                  Moderator
                  • May 2004
                  • 437

                  #23
                  Originally posted by eddr View Post
                  Uh oh what have I started!
                  As for the lighting, that sounds great - Would I have to somehow turn one of the two way switches into one way then, and put a dimmer socket where the redundant one (dead) would be?
                  I don't think so if I understand your setup.

                  The switch plate at the top of the stairs (assumed to be single switch, single pattress) is replaced by an SLD dimmer module if you want to preserve the dimming function.

                  The double switch (assumed to be single pattress) at the bottom is replaced by a DRB module.

                  The specifics depend on where power and load for the top light appear. They might both actually appear in the downstairs socket, or both at the top, or power in one and load in the other.

                  If the mains power feed to the upstairs light enters in the upstairs pattress and the load connection is also there then you can just disconnect and isolate the existing 3+E mains wiring between top and bottom. The mains goes into the dimmer module and out to the load.

                  If the mains power arrives at the bottom and doesn't exist at the top pattress then you would use some of the conductors of the 3+E to carry it up to the top socket to feed the dimmer, assuming the load is there.

                  If both are at the bottom then you could use some of the 3+E conductors to take the power up to the dimmer and then carry the dimmed load current back to the bottom to connect to the load.

                  Your sparky should be able to trace it out.
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                  www.gumbrell.com

                  Comment

                  • Gumby
                    Moderator
                    • May 2004
                    • 437

                    #24
                    Originally posted by eddr View Post
                    Uh oh what have I started!
                    Geps - I don't mean any offence and between us we have hopefully corrected or refined each others comments to be useful to the OP.

                    I can't help thinking of the XCKD cartoon though:

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                    www.gumbrell.com

                    Comment

                    • Geps
                      Automated Home Guru
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 136

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Gumby View Post
                      Geps - I don't mean any offence and between us we have hopefully corrected or refined each others comments to be useful to the OP.

                      I can't help thinking of the XCKD cartoon though:

                      Not at all....you can go on many electrical forums and find plenty of disagreements and that's between people who do this for a living.

                      Comment

                      • JonS
                        Automated Home Guru
                        • Dec 2007
                        • 202

                        #26
                        I cannot comment on the safe zone circuit protection issues etc that Gumby and Geps have been debating, but getting back to how to control mains sockets, my views are as discussed the safety/regs requirements for FCUs etc make for excessive wall sockets. What I did was (with advice from clued up sparky) have a ring main and then a few QRH controlled spurs from a sub-Consumer unit.
                        This is OK but as pointed out there are still a lot of spare sockets which only get used for Christmas lights!
                        The ideal for retrofit would be RF controlled devices that integrate with Idratek and I am sure they must be on the drawing board so wait / use X10 / Homeeasy etc
                        OR (and I've no idea if this is allowed in the regs)... use an outlet of the ample structured wiring you are probably installing and create a project-box with mains feed in from a socket on your ring main, Idranet in via your structured wiring and put the relays, fuses and outlets into a suitable enclosure. This won't be compact but in the long run will be better than the excess wall-sockets that have been discussed; you can move it about (structured wiring permitting) and when RF arrives you can remove it completely. Obviously in this case you would have to take care to label the cat5/6 sockets used for Idranet carefully else 12-15V might fry an ethernet device. You would feed Idranet into the structured wiring at the patch panel linking into a 6WA or similar module. I think this is also what SimBarr was suggesting.
                        2p
                        Last edited by JonS; 24 March 2011, 06:46 PM.
                        JonS

                        Comment

                        • Paul_B
                          Automated Home Legend
                          • Jul 2006
                          • 608

                          #27
                          What erks me about all the regs is it doesn't stop the cowboys and like health and safety it becomes more draconian to ensure its existence. One of the worst houses for wiring I have ever seen was a council house that was recently re-wired. Many of the metal back boxes weren't earthed, pattresses were sitting proud of the wall and a lighting rose was being used as a junction box.

                          Comment

                          • eddr
                            Automated Home Sr Member
                            • Mar 2011
                            • 51

                            #28
                            Originally posted by JonS View Post
                            I cannot comment on the safe zone circuit protection issues etc that Gumby and Geps have been debating, but getting back to how to control mains sockets, my views are as discussed the safety/regs requirements for FCUs etc make for excessive wall sockets. What I did was (with advice from clued up sparky) have a ring main and then a few QRH controlled spurs from a sub-Consumer unit.
                            This is OK but as pointed out there are still a lot of spare sockets which only get used for Christmas lights!
                            The ideal for retrofit would be RF controlled devices that integrate with Idratek and I am sure they must be on the drawing board so wait / use X10 / Homeeasy etc
                            OR (and I've no idea if this is allowed in the regs)... use an outlet of the ample structured wiring you are probably installing and create a project-box with mains feed in from a socket on your ring main, Idranet in via your structured wiring and put the relays, fuses and outlets into a suitable enclosure. This won't be compact but in the long run will be better than the excess wall-sockets that have been discussed; you can move it about (structured wiring permitting) and when RF arrives you can remove it completely. Obviously in this case you would have to take care to label the cat5/6 sockets used for Idranet carefully else 12-15V might fry an ethernet device. You would feed Idranet into the structured wiring at the patch panel linking into a 6WA or similar module. I think this is also what SimBarr was suggesting.
                            2p
                            First of all again, thank you everyone for your input... much appreciated!

                            JonS, you've just put another idea into the mix with a sub consumer unit and QRH modules - Where did you end up putting it all (The QRH module and cabling to it)? If I were to do this, it'd end up in the attic I think! When you say you have spare sockets, you mean you've run a load of new ones but you don't actually use them?

                            Comment

                            • JonS
                              Automated Home Guru
                              • Dec 2007
                              • 202

                              #29
                              I've got a node zero where most of the DIN modules sit, plus 3 other locations around the house (to keep cable runs shorter). Two of these in cupboards and the other tucked away in the hallway. From there 1 think about 6 single sockets are fed on spurs. plus all the lights for the extension. Each spur for light or power has an appropriately rated MCB whihc feeds into a QRH/I and then feeds the spur. With more spurs than relays I've moved the controlled circuit around without having to rewire except in the enclosure. The extra single sockets are permamently powered - so can be used for appliances, but whith a ring main as well I don't think they get used.
                              HTH
                              JonS

                              Comment

                              • Gumby
                                Moderator
                                • May 2004
                                • 437

                                #30
                                Originally posted by eddr View Post
                                JonS, you've just put another idea into the mix with a sub consumer unit and QRH modules - Where did you end up putting it all (The QRH module and cabling to it)? If I were to do this, it'd end up in the attic I think!
                                This is the radial scheme I mentioned.

                                Depending on you house layout you might find somewhere convenient on each floor - perhaps understairs for ground floor, back of a cupboard on a first floor.

                                I have distribution boxes for lighting, one under the stairs does ground floor, two in the attic do the upstairs. But for power sockets I have made do with SRHs and single outlets. The only place I regret not having more control is the kitchen, but that was wired before HA-madness took hold.
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                                www.gumbrell.com

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