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Thread: Electronic TRV's 2012

  1. #1
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    Default Electronic TRV's 2012

    I still have a bimetal roomstat in hall with wax Danfoss TRV's on 13 of the 14 radiators in house (hall currently has lockshield).

    Was considering getting a wireless roomstat to improve temperature stability in lounge but noticed the price of electronic TRV's has come down a lot.

    Has anyone tried any of the budget Conrad options (or other suggestions)?:-

    The EQ3 at 15.99
    http://www.conrad-uk.com/ce/en/produ...12040&ref=list

    The Eurotronic Sparmatic Comet at 15.97
    http://www.conrad-uk.com/ce/en/produ...-White/0812040

    The HSA9001A at 19.99 (reduced from 49.99... too good a bargain for a Scotsman! )
    http://www.conrad-uk.com/ce/en/produ...-White/0812040

    Or, for around 26 a room an RF option:-
    http://www.conrad-uk.com/ce/en/produ...12040&ref=list


    The Pegler iTemp also looks like a good option at 23 and has USB programmer, window sensor and remote programmer options for around (plus most importantly UK manuals and support).
    This would cost aorund 370 for including 14 valve thermostats, a remote, one sensor for patio doors and a USB programmer but the UK support, etc seem to make this quite a good option....
    http://www.plumbclick.co.uk/varius.l...=18&language=1

    Think my current TRV's are Danfoss RA.

    I looked at Honeywell/ Conrad HS20 "full" systems but for 14 radiators cost is a lot higher (circa 1000) and I'm not sure I need the features of the "integrated" systems.

    The main advantage of "integrated" wireless TRV systems seems to be a pump control relay- but reading other forums it seems that I'd be better replacing my "fixed speed" Grundfos pump with a Grundfos Alpha 2- less power and dynamic "load sense" means I don't need any radiators left with lockshield and no TRV, or a roomstat. (Note I on't have a combi boiler- system is boiler + boilermate 2000 heat store)

    Anyone tried any of these budget options- 14 zone system for circa 250 plus 120 for a new high efficiency pump seems pretty good and may actually payback in 2 - 4 years...(unusual for my HA "investments")
    Last edited by chris_gla; 1st May 2012 at 02:23 AM.

  2. #2
    tomkent45
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    I haven't used any of these models, but in my experience you always get what you pay for so it may be worth splashing out! Don't forget to check the warranty lengths for each product and read as many reviews as you can. Hope this helps!

  3. #3
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    Default Radiator without trv is not to allow flow if trv`s have closed

    Quote Originally Posted by chris_gla View Post
    I still have a bimetal roomstat in hall with wax Danfoss TRV's on 13 of the 14 radiators in house (hall currently has lockshield).

    Was considering getting a wireless roomstat to improve temperature stability in lounge but noticed the price of electronic TRV's has come down a lot.

    Has anyone tried any of the budget Conrad options (or other suggestions)?:-

    The EQ3 at 15.99
    http://www.conrad-uk.com/ce/en/produ...12040&ref=list

    The Eurotronic Sparmatic Comet at 15.97
    http://www.conrad-uk.com/ce/en/produ...-White/0812040

    The HSA9001A at 19.99 (reduced from 49.99... too good a bargain for a Scotsman! )
    http://www.conrad-uk.com/ce/en/produ...-White/0812040

    Or, for around 26 a room an RF option:-
    http://www.conrad-uk.com/ce/en/produ...12040&ref=list


    The Pegler iTemp also looks like a good option at 23 and has USB programmer, window sensor and remote programmer options for around (plus most importantly UK manuals and support).
    This would cost aorund 370 for including 14 valve thermostats, a remote, one sensor for patio doors and a USB programmer but the UK support, etc seem to make this quite a good option....
    http://www.plumbclick.co.uk/varius.l...=18&language=1

    Think my current TRV's are Danfoss RA.

    I looked at Honeywell/ Conrad HS20 "full" systems but for 14 radiators cost is a lot higher (circa 1000) and I'm not sure I need the features of the "integrated" systems.

    The main advantage of "integrated" wireless TRV systems seems to be a pump control relay- but reading other forums it seems that I'd be better replacing my "fixed speed" Grundfos pump with a Grundfos Alpha 2- less power and dynamic "load sense" means I don't need any radiators left with lockshield and no TRV, or a roomstat. (Note I on't have a combi boiler- system is boiler + boilermate 2000 heat store)

    Anyone tried any of these budget options- 14 zone system for circa 250 plus 120 for a new high efficiency pump seems pretty good and may actually payback in 2 - 4 years...(unusual for my HA "investments")

    Hello Chris,


    I am a Heating Engineer - although I cannot advise You regarding the Controls that You mentioned I wanted to alert You to something that You MAY have the wrong impression about regarding NOT needing a Room Thermostat and the Radiator that does NOT have a TRV:


    Without a Room Thermostat the Boiler will keep `Cycling` - Firing Up in order to Satisfy the setting on the Boiler Thermostat - You MUST have a Room Thermostat - ideally a Programmable Room Thermostat which can be Set for different Temperatures at different periods of the Day & Night.

    Thermostatic control is actually a requirement of the Building Regulations - `Part L` - the Energy Efficiency details within these Regulations applies to ALL Heating System Installations - and significant Upgrades / alterations - NOT just to New Build Homes / New Heating System Installations.

    The Room Thermostat forms part of what is called `Boiler Interlock` - regarding the Heating System Controls.

    Apart from the Regulations aspect You would be `Throwing Money Away` to run a Heating System that does NOT have a Room Thermostat.

    This Thermostat is usually fitted in the Hallway - enough distance away from the Radiator to make sure that it is NOT Turning Off the Boiler prematurely - before the rest of the Home / System - this of course is VERY dependent on the Hallway being of a reasonable size and the Radiator being of the correct size to correctly heat that space.

    The Radiator in the area where the Room Thermostat is located MUST NOT have a TRV - because the Heat Up of the Hallway - or other Room Thermostat location - is `controlling` the Boiler Firing process and therefore when the Heat is circulating around the rest of the Heating System pipework.

    This Radiator should NEVER be turned Off when the Heating is operating - although Homes that have a very small Hallway [and Room Stat in Hallway] sometimes do have the Hall Radiator turned Off so that the Room Thermostat is operated from Heat coming out of the Rooms that connect with the [Small] Hallway - in these circumstances the Room Thermostat may be better located elsewhere - depending on the property layout.

    The lack of a TRV on a Radiator that is in the location where the Room Thermostat is fitted is NOT to enable the Heating Flow and Return to be able to Circulate IF all the TRV`s were ever to Turn Off at the same time - which is very unlikely unless others were Manually turned Off and then the others closed down on the Temperature Setting.

    The correct procedure for a Hall Radiator in a average sized Hallway where a Room Thermostat is fitted in the Hallway is to fit 2 Lockshield Radiator Valves - so that the Radiator cannot be turned Off - again the Radiator must be the correct size to correctly heat the Hallway / Room Thermostat location - Or the Boiler would NOT be firing for the correct periods of time to Heat the Home correctly.


    The Grundfos Alpha 2 is definitely the Pump that I would Install [if replacing a Grundfos 15/50 or 15/60] and I have replaced the Grundfos 15/60 in My own Home with one of these - the Pump modulates when it `senses` a change in Flow from for example TRV`s closing - so the Power usage is not at maximum all the time that the Pump is running - a small saving in electricity.

    As with any Heating System there MUST be provision for circulation of the water - most modern Boilers require that a Bypass is installed reasonably close to the Boiler - Regulations now specify that an Automatic Bypass Valve is installed [Again `Part L`] - this is to prevent circulating the Heating Flow & Return around the Bypass when unnecessary - i.e. when the System is operating to circulate Heat around the Home.

    The Bypass should ONLY operate when the Circulation around the System is NOT required - for example when the Heating / Hot Water Zone Valves [Motorised Valves] are Closed - in order to Dissipate Heat from the Boiler.

    If You don`t already have one - You may want to consider installing an Automatic Bypass Valve when You have the System Drained down to fit the new TRV`s and Pump - the prevention of circulation around an `Always Open` Bypass will improve the System Heat Up time as the Heated Water will be circulating around the Flow and Return only - NOT through an Open Bypass.



    Whatever Radiator Controls that You select these Important Points MUST be observed or You will be spending quite a lot of Money and NOT Controlling the Heating System correctly.


    I hope that this is helpful - Sorry if this is `Too Late` - I have only just become a Forum Member.


    Regards,


    Chris - Heating Engineer - Heating, Plumbing & Gas Contractor.
    Last edited by CHRISMU; 30th June 2012 at 10:15 PM.

  4. #4
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    "Hello All",

    I noticed when I submitted the previous Post that several words had become disrupted - I had to Edit the post a few times to rectify this.

    I apologise to any Members who read the Post before I noticed this - some of the Words had become very strange !

    I have seen this before on other Forums - usually If the Spell Checker has been used - I don`t think that this is the case on here - nor do I think that this is anything to do with My Browser [?] or Windows 7 [?].

    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by CHRISMU View Post
    Hello Chris,


    I am a Heating Engineer - although I cannot advise You regarding the Controls that You mentioned I wanted to alert You to something that You MAY have the wrong impression about regarding NOT needing a Room Thermostat and the Radiator that does NOT have a TRV:


    Without a Room Thermostat the Boiler will keep `Cycling` - Firing Up in order to Satisfy the setting on the Boiler Thermostat - You MUST have a Room Thermostat - ideally a Programmable Room Thermostat which can be Set for different Temperatures at different periods of the Day & Night.

    Thermostatic control is actually a requirement of the Building Regulations - `Part L` - the Energy Efficiency details within these Regulations applies to ALL Heating System Installations - and significant Upgrades / alterations - NOT just to New Build Homes / New Heating System Installations.

    The Room Thermostat forms part of what is called `Boiler Interlock` - regarding the Heating System Controls.

    Apart from the Regulations aspect You would be `Throwing Money Away` to run a Heating System that does NOT have a Room Thermostat.

    This Thermostat is usually fitted in the Hallway - enough distance away from the Radiator to make sure that it is NOT Turning Off the Boiler prematurely - before the rest of the Home / System - this of course is VERY dependent on the Hallway being of a reasonable size and the Radiator being of the correct size to correctly heat that space.

    The Radiator in the area where the Room Thermostat is located MUST NOT have a TRV - because the Heat Up of the Hallway - or other Room Thermostat location - is `controlling` the Boiler Firing process and therefore when the Heat is circulating around the rest of the Heating System pipework.

    This Radiator should NEVER be turned Off when the Heating is operating - although Homes that have a very small Hallway [and Room Stat in Hallway] sometimes do have the Hall Radiator turned Off so that the Room Thermostat is operated from Heat coming out of the Rooms that connect with the [Small] Hallway - in these circumstances the Room Thermostat may be better located elsewhere - depending on the property layout.

    The lack of a TRV on a Radiator that is in the location where the Room Thermostat is fitted is NOT to enable the Heating Flow and Return to be able to Circulate IF all the TRV`s were ever to Turn Off at the same time - which is very unlikely unless others were Manually turned Off and then the others closed down on the Temperature Setting.

    The correct procedure for a Hall Radiator in a average sized Hallway where a Room Thermostat is fitted in the Hallway is to fit 2 Lockshield Radiator Valves - so that the Radiator cannot be turned Off - again the Radiator must be the correct size to correctly heat the Hallway / Room Thermostat location - Or the Boiler would NOT be firing for the correct periods of time to Heat the Home correctly.


    The Grundfos Alpha 2 is definitely the Pump that I would Install [if replacing a Grundfos 15/50 or 15/60] and I have replaced the Grundfos 15/60 in My own Home with one of these - the Pump modulates when it `senses` a change in Flow from for example TRV`s closing - so the Power usage is not at maximum all the time that the Pump is running - a small saving in electricity.

    As with any Heating System there MUST be provision for circulation of the water - most modern Boilers require that a Bypass is installed reasonably close to the Boiler - Regulations now specify that an Automatic Bypass Valve is installed [Again `Part L`] - this is to prevent circulating the Heating Flow & Return around the Bypass when unnecessary - i.e. when the System is operating to circulate Heat around the Home.

    The Bypass should ONLY operate when the Circulation around the System is NOT required - for example when the Heating / Hot Water Zone Valves [Motorised Valves] are Closed - in order to Dissipate Heat from the Boiler.

    If You don`t already have one - You may want to consider installing an Automatic Bypass Valve when You have the System Drained down to fit the new TRV`s and Pump - the prevention of circulation around an `Always Open` Bypass will improve the System Heat Up time as the Heated Water will be circulating around the Flow and Return only - NOT through an Open Bypass.



    Whatever Radiator Controls that You select these Important Points MUST be observed or You will be spending quite a lot of Money and NOT Controlling the Heating System correctly.

    I'm a Heating Engineer also and I couldn't have put it any better myself. The only thing that I would add is that if it is feasible and if your are going to use a wireless thermostat you could consider putting it in the coldest ground floor room in the house. You'll know which one this is. The theory being that if you warm the coldest room up you can always control the heat downwards using your TRV's in the other rooms. One thing that Chris hasn't mentioned, never put a thermostat in a room where there is another uncontrolled heat source, i.e. Open fire, Wood burner etc. If the alternative heat source is on, the room warms up and the boiler turns off = rest of the house cold. You would be surprised how many of these we come across !!!

    - Neil

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilhooper View Post
    I'm a Heating Engineer also and I couldn't have put it any better myself. The only thing that I would add is that if it is feasible and if your are going to use a wireless thermostat you could consider putting it in the coldest ground floor room in the house. You'll know which one this is. The theory being that if you warm the coldest room up you can always control the heat downwards using your TRV's in the other rooms. One thing that Chris hasn't mentioned, never put a thermostat in a room where there is another uncontrolled heat source, i.e. Open fire, Wood burner etc. If the alternative heat source is on, the room warms up and the boiler turns off = rest of the house cold. You would be surprised how many of these we come across !!!

    - Neil

    ""Hello Neil",

    Thanks for your compliment - always good to read an `endorsement` from a fellow Professional.

    I agree with your VERY Important points regarding the Room Thermostat location - especially in regard to particularly Cold room / area and the information about the Additional Heat Source.


    I did not try to cover all points that should be considered about upgrading the Controls etc. on a Heating System - I wanted mainly to explain about why Chris should NOT dispense with a Room Thermostat and why a Radiator in the area where the Room Thermostat is located should NOT have a TRV or Wheel Head Radiator Valve - and that this is NOT because of allowing one Radiator to be `Open` to circulate water.

    That led Me to explain about the Automatic Bypass.


    As You know We could fill Pages and Pages IF trying to explain everything about Upgrading a Heating System Controls - I thought that I had written `Well Enough` in My long Post [for fear of putting other Members off reading it] - and it MAY never even be read by Chris ? - His Post was 2 Months ago.

    I did not receive any `Notification` Email from the Forum after You Posted your message - so He may not ever see these Posts [?].

    I hope that He does or He will have some VERY Expensive Gas Bills if running a Heating System without a Room Thermostat !


    Thanks again Neil - good to read your valuable advice to Chris and other Members.


    Chris


    EDIT: I did receive a notification Email about your Post - at approx. 00:20 Hrs [Sunday] - after I had wriiten and Posted this Message.
    Last edited by CHRISMU; 1st July 2012 at 12:23 AM.

  7. #7
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    Default Lost words from previous post`s paragraph

    Quote Originally Posted by CHRISMU View Post
    "Hello All",

    I noticed when I submitted the previous Post that several words had become disrupted - I had to Edit the post a few times to rectify this.

    I apologise to any Members who read the Post before I noticed this - some of the Words had become very strange !

    I have seen this before on other Forums - usually If the Spell Checker has been used - I don`t think that this is the case on here - nor do I think that this is anything to do with My Browser [?] or Windows 7 [?].

    Chris


    When I carried out the Edits that I mentioned above - somehow due to the Words disruption / merging and Me having to delete merged words some words were `lost` from the paragraph below - this is how it should have read:


    This Thermostat is usually fitted in the Hallway - enough distance away from the Radiator to make sure that it is NOT Turning Off the Boiler prematurely - before the rest of the Home / System has Heated Up - this of course is VERY dependent on the Hallway being of a reasonable size and the Radiator being of the correct size to correctly heat that space.


    The missing words were `has Heated Up` - quite important to make sense of what I wrote - I had not previously noticed this.


    Chris

  8. #8
    Automated Home Guru neilhooper's Avatar
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    Chris,

    I wouldn't worry whether Chris gets to read your reply, my reply or any other reply. The main thing is that a lot of people who are just browsing the forums or who are searching for particular items will read it. If someone reads it and they 'do it properly' as a result then our job is done.

    - Neil

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilhooper View Post
    Chris,

    I wouldn't worry whether Chris gets to read your reply, my reply or any other reply. The main thing is that a lot of people who are just browsing the forums or who are searching for particular items will read it. If someone reads it and they 'do it properly' as a result then our job is done.

    - Neil

    Hello Neil,

    My only reason for writing My message to Chris was to try and help Him and prevent Him spending quite a lot of money on Digital TRV`s and dispense with a Room Thermostat only to have put Himself into a far worse position regarding `Energy Efficiency` and also costing Him a lot more money on His Gas Bills.

    Although I saw that His Post was from May 1st - because I thought that these `Upgrades` would perhaps be carried out in the Summer Months - I thought that My message might have been read before the Works were carried out.

    Obviously I do hope that what I wrote will benefit other Members / readers on the Forum.

    The reasons for My comment about Chris reading what I wrote are - firstly I was letting You know why I wrote about ONLY the points that He seemed to be under the wrong impression about - and secondly My was statement that I had not received a notification Email from the Forum - which was the case when I was writing My message - meant that I wondered whether He would ever be notified about My message.

    The notification Email was delivered afterwards this was probably just the result of a delay in the Email system.


    Your very important points were well made and definitely added to what I wrote and would benefit Chris and other readers.


    But it was never My intention that My message should contain any more than information about the points that I perceived Chris might not have the correct information about.


    I know that both You and I could write very extensively about Upgrading Heating Systems or Upgrading Heating System Controls.

    But if it seemed necessary to Us to help a Member with ALL the information required We would probably refer them to `Part L` and perhaps give Links to the relevant sections - then adding Our own advice [such as You Posted here] and answering questions that would almost invariably result from their interpretations of what they read in `Part L`.


    Thanks again Neil for your messages - I look forward to reading Your advice to other Members in the future.


    Chris
    Last edited by CHRISMU; 2nd July 2012 at 09:09 PM.

  10. #10
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    thanks for the info Chris... the idea for having all TRV with no room stat or bypass with a Grundfos Alpha came from another forum...

    I think the view was right to a degree as on the system I have the room stat doesn't control the boiler directly, but does via a Boilermate thermal store. This may stop the cycling to a degree, that said it doesn't get away from the part L need for boiler interlock and that although the Alpha will modulate it's just not a good idea running it into a "closed circuit"!

    I think I've came down to one of three systems- none have a "room stat" but all have a boiler interlock which any of the digital wireless TRV's can control:-
    1) Honeywell Evo, CM zone or similar using HR80 wireless TRV's. Very good, circa 50 per room but web control seems expensive
    2) Lightwave RF. Similar to the Honeywell system but a bit more open standards due to other Lughtwave RF kit/ controllers being available.
    3) Danfoss Living Connect. Contacted Danfoss about this as a few places have them but they aren't officially released in the UK until later in 2012. Again, wireless TRV's but this time they use Zwave meaning you could use a Zwave PIR for instance to detect a room being occupied and switching on/ increasing temp in any room.

    All three have boiler interlock which replaces room stat to turn any traditional TRV system into multizone only by changing the TRV head- not the complete valve. They all have some degree of fuzzy logic to reduce cycling, exercise closed valves weekly, etc.

    Pegler have quite a few references on their site which show potential savings and I can see how these would work for my lifestyle (close bed TRV's most of the day, only open office TRV when I'm actually in the house and it's a work day, allow remote control of other TRV's for when I know there is no one at home). Pegler are cheaper but are just TRV heads with no interlock/ remote option so not so good for my use.

    As it stands I'll probably wait until the Danfoss Living Connect become available and then buy a few of them plus either a Danfoss or Horstmann Zwave boiler interlock to get started and as a "basic" reliable system, then add a Vera controller for remote options and more clever stuff over the top.

    All in it looks like around 1500 for everything but it isn't unreleastic to think that I could save 200 - 300 a year (15 - 25%) by automating some tasks.

    The new pump and hall TRV's are the only bits I'd need to drain system down for- I'm likely to get a heating engineer for this to desludge, etc as the system is now 10 years old.

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