First foray into HA

[Wexfordman]

Hi Willem,

My heating contol is done using velbus relays. I have a three zone heating system (oil fired). Control is siimple, as its a relay for each zone, all going through a vmb4ry module. If you look at the link for the cel spreadsheets of my din rail layout I think it shows a schematic.

In addition to the velbus relays, I uses SCS switches, 4 altogether throughout the house. These have a built in temp control, so each room with an scs reports back room temp to comfort. With that, you can program up variou different macro do do different things based on temp, occupancy etc. I also have a back-boiler on our living room stove which is able to heat rads and water when lighting. I have a standard room thermostat behind this which is wired to a comfort input, whiich goes open circuit when it hits a certain temp. This is used to tell cofort that the fire is lighting, and to control the heating based on this.

I am thinking of adding velbus vmb1tc temperature controllers and some vmb1ts temp sensors to my system also. The vmb1tc I think will add a bit more intuitive control to hating etc.

I dont have a kt03 touch screen, think it woud be a nice addition, but a bit pricey for me to justify. Would prob put one in now as part of a new build, cos I could "disguise" the cost of it, but hard to do that now :-)

All of my prograing has been done using comfigurator on a pc/laptop, its quite easy once you get used to it.

On the hardware, first thing first is decide specifically how many inputs you need, cos thats the basic bit you need to get right. You need to think a bit above basic security requirements to do the automation peice, foe example, the unusual inputs tht you may require to feed comfort info on wht the house is doing. Dont just plan for PIR and external door sensors.

My house is a 4 bed bungalow with 3 living rooms, and I a using 24 inputs in total. I could do with a few more, but just to give an ru down

4 external door sensors
11 pir sensors
4 internal door sensors
1 room thermostat (for stove).
2 sensors on outdoor buildings
1 reserved for driveway sensor


For the PIR's, any room with an open fire or stove, then go for dualtec pir's to avoid false alarns due to heat changes.
Think avout an lem03 instead of a lem02, I thik it will give youe 16 extra inputs.


I have not used a door station, so cant really advise on that, and the ringer for home phone, but seems fairly straight forward.


Again, hve a serious thinkg about wiring as many sensors as possible at this stage, its dirt cheap to wire for them, and saves a lot of hassle in later years. I would have wired all my internal doors with recessed door contacts if I had the cnace again, it works really well on the rooms that I did do it on, and makes the light control work seamlessly.

[Lab-art]

Hi Willem,

My heating contol is done using velbus relays. I have a three zone heating system (oil fired). Control is siimple, as its a relay for each zone, all going through a vmb4ry module. If you look at the link for the cel spreadsheets of my din rail layout I think it shows a schematic.

I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to wire for Velbus yet or if I can afford it. My original though was to connnect all the lighting through z-wave. I still have to speak to builder about the possibility of changing the wiring spec (and how expensive that would be). Is there any other way to integrate heating into comfort? I could not find too much on the topic in the Comfort forum.

In addition to the velbus relays, I uses SCS switches, 4 altogether throughout the house. These have a built in temp control, so each room with an scs reports back room temp to comfort. With that, you can program up variou different macro do do different things based on temp, occupancy etc. I also have a back-boiler on our living room stove which is able to heat rads and water when lighting. I have a standard room thermostat behind this which is wired to a comfort input, whiich goes open circuit when it hits a certain temp. This is used to tell cofort that the fire is lighting, and to control the heating based on this.

I didn't realize that the Comfort SCSs had temp included. How do you connect the SCS to the main unit. What is the maximum amount of SCSs that you can have? Also, (albeit trivial) how do you label to switches?

I dont have a kt03 touch screen, think it woud be a nice addition, but a bit pricey for me to justify. Would prob put one in now as part of a new build, cos I could "disguise" the cost of it, but hard to do that now :-)

Yes they are quite expensive. However, If I buy all my kit together they come down in price to around GBP200 (still 4 times more than the alternative). but as you say I can hide it in the overall expense.

All of my prograing has been done using comfigurator on a pc/laptop, its quite easy once you get used to it.

Do I need an extra program or in the Ethernet UMC all I need?

For the PIR's, any room with an open fire or stove, then go for dualtec pir's to avoid false alarns due to heat changes.
Think avout an lem03 instead of a lem02, I thik it will give youe 16 extra inputs.

Thanks for the advice. Will do on both fronts.

On the hardware, first thing first is decide specifically how many inputs you need, cos thats the basic bit you need to get right. You need to think a bit above basic security requirements to do the automation peice, foe example, the unusual inputs tht you may require to feed comfort info on wht the house is doing. Dont just plan for PIR and external door sensors.

My house is a 4 bed bungalow with 3 living rooms, and I a using 24 inputs in total. I could do with a few more, but just to give an ru down

4 external door sensors
11 pir sensors
4 internal door sensors
1 room thermostat (for stove).
2 sensors on outdoor buildings
1 reserved for driveway sensor

Again, hve a serious thinkg about wiring as many sensors as possible at this stage, its dirt cheap to wire for them, and saves a lot of hassle in later years. I would have wired all my internal doors with recessed door contacts if I had the cnace again, it works really well on the rooms that I did do it on, and makes the light control work seamlessly.

You make an excellent point. Thanks. I will put in PIRs in all the rooms.

However, I don't understand what the benefit of wiring the internal doors would be? RIR's - yes, external doors - yes. But how does internal door sensors help? What information would that give you besides that you forgot to close the door? Surely the PIR in each room is sufficient?

[Vangelis]

Lab-Art - Not sure if you have looked at LightwaveRF for your lighting solution? These are direct replacements for your light switches and can on/off/dim. You can control them remotely via a WebHub, and I know that Comfort has recently introduced LightwaveRF integration. The product range also does mains socket control (useful if you have young kids)

[b33k34]

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11 pir sensors
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Again, hve a serious thinkg about wiring as many sensors as possible at this stage, its dirt cheap to wire for them, and saves a lot of hassle in later years. I would have wired all my internal doors with recessed door contacts if I had the cnace again, it works really well on the rooms that I did do it on, and makes the light control work seamlessly.

Can you give a bit more info on how you use these? My experience of PIR's, both at home and in offices has been poor but that may be a result of poor quality/badly configured sensors. At home on the (Visonic) alarm even the "petsafe" sensors caused false alarms - one I had to move as it sense the rising sun reflecting on an internal wall, two others the cat managed to set off whatever we did (when we're out she must gain a whole second level of agility to get to places we've never seen her go). In Office spaces when the occupancy level drops it's routine to have to do the 'wave arms thing' even when relatively close to sensors (sitting stationary at a PC not being enough to trigger).

How do you use internal door sensors? I'm assuming you must be doing some combination of PIR and door sensing to detect occupancy but we're very inconsistent about closing our doors - most we rarely close.

[Lab-art]

Yes, I did, although I have not looked at them for several months. I started looking at them at a Grand Designs a few years back and at the time was convinced that it was the product for me. I have had a few calls with their customer service and have researched there products to some extent.

Unfortunately, I must say that I was put off of them by quite a few negative forum entries on this and other forums. From memory the main negatives are (were): Reduced efficiency of the lights (max 60-70%), stuck to one vendor, very long product rollout cycle, are not purpose built for LED and only work with certain bulbs, they have to be connected to the switch (making concealed lighting in the kitchen difficult), etc - although comfort integration is a good move an their part. They obviously have great distribution capabilities here in the UK with their Home Easy heritage and links to Siemens and B&Q.

With zwave (which is a similar price if not cheeper than LWRF) you already have integration into most other systems. It is an open standard with many vendors. It is becoming the biggest standard in wireless. Gives you the option of using any switch you want to. Also, the products are quite a bit more developed (although choice is not as developed as in the US). Also the recently announced Rasberi zwave module in my opinion is going to give this standard a big boost.

The big negative with Zwave (and LWRF for that matter) is that they are still wireless. Hence why I could be swayed (depending on price) to a Cbus model (Velbus, Loxone, etc) However, I think that it may be to late to change my mind due to where I stand with the wiring.

Willem

[Vangelis]

Lab-Art - I have seen the same reviews as you, but just wanted something that could replace a lightswitch and be done - they work on the MHz ranges so don't get swamped by WiFi (2.4GHz). I had a look at the Fibaro (ZWave) modules, but may struggle situating them in the lightswitch backplate, as each one I take the cover off, seems to have been turned into a wiring junction of some sorts by the electrician, which 'springs' out like zebedee - lol

b33k34 - Have you considered dual-tech PIRs? eg Honeywell DT7550. These require both PIR and Microwave to be triggered before issuing a confirmed activation. They are a little bigger than normal PIRs but have some good features (anti-mask, built in EOLs etc). Haven't set mine up for pets, so not sure about your levitating cat..lol

[b33k34]

The big negative with Zwave (and LWRF for that matter) is that they are still wireless. Hence why I could be swayed (depending on price) to a Cbus model (Velbus, Loxone, etc) However, I think that it may be to late to change my mind due to where I stand with the wiring.

I did a load of Z-Wave research at the weekend. The 'open-ness' of the standard is a big plus point but I was still finding regular post talking about dead patches and
flaky modules (plus one damning long term report on Fibaro). It looks like a bit of a missed opportunity to me - designing in the option of using a wired connection instead of the wireless would have given extra flexibility at minimal extra manufacturing cost. I presume the mix of HV and LV in such a small space would be the issue.

My issue with wireless is that, even if it works on Day1, you've always got the risk of something one of your neighbours does affecting your network later (baby monitors/video senders/microwaves). I can now see c 20 wifi networks when I scan - everyone has one now - and my wireless speeds at home have taken a beating. Someone nearby does something between 7 and 730 that kills my internet radio each day.

[biccies]

Z-Wave does look promising, although it seems to be a hole where mains sockets should be. There are a few of the plug-in modules but I've not found anything designed to be 'integrated' socket wise. LightWave have the aesthetic lead, I just wish they had the functionality of Z-Wave to go with it!

[Wexfordman]

Can you give a bit more info on how you use these? My experience of PIR's, both at home and in offices has been poor but that may be a result of poor quality/badly configured sensors. At home on the (Visonic) alarm even the "petsafe" sensors caused false alarms - one I had to move as it sense the rising sun reflecting on an internal wall,

This is where the dualtec sensors will work well for you. I had same problem in our living room, except it was the fire/stove that was setting it off. I swapped it for a dualtec sensor and nevet had a problem since. They are more expensive, so you prob dont need them everywhere, just where you expect problems such as sunlight and heat from fires etc.

two others the cat managed to set off whatever we did (when we're out she must gain a whole second level of agility to get to places we've never seen her go).

Cats tend to jump around, I have dogs, so no cat problems :-) I have a room in the house also,, which is not armed, so if dogs remoain inside when we are out, this is where they are.

In Office spaces when the occupancy level drops it's routine to have to do the 'wave arms thing' even when relatively close to sensors (sitting stationary at a PC not being enough to trigger).

This all depends on the room you are in and how it is being used. If it is a lving room, you could perhaps use a combination of extended timers based on different events. Motion would not be the only trigger for an event, for example, if you can use IR recepttion from the telly, you could flag the room as occupied for a longer period. I havnt done this yet, but plan to, and will prob do it with velbus IR I think, although could use cimfort IR input either.

I think some times you have to be realistic, in that this wont work in every room. For now, I dont use it in the living room, but I have most other rooms set to trun off after a timer runs out. The kitchen does catch us occasionaly, I dont use it in the dining room, or hallway either, but use it on rear lihts, corridoor lights and bedroom lights.

It works best for me in the two bathrooms, which I will explain below

How do you use internal door sensors? I'm assuming you must be doing some combination of PIR and door sensing to detect occupancy but we're very inconsistent about closing our doors - most we rarely close.

Absolutely, I use the door sensor to trun the light on, start an off timer, and then a second command when the PIR goes off (and door is closed) which pauses the off timer. This only works if you ensure your doors are always closed, and this is easily solved with a spring loaded internal recessed automatic door closer. Cost about 10 euro and easy to fit. I have this system in en-suite, main bathroom and utility room, and it works very well. Again, door closers wont suit every room, but where they are suited, I would recommend getting them fitted.

For this reason I would wire internal door sensors to all the doors,, and implement it as and when you get to know what works for you over time. Its cheap to run a bit of cable, and using the recessed sensors, nothing will be visible.

The automatic door closers also prevent lights comming on un-neccessarily as people wlk past rooms etc with doors open, which used to happen regularly with our ain bathroom until I fitted this.

[Wexfordman]

I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to wire for Velbus yet or if I can afford it. My original though was to connnect all the lighting through z-wave. I still have to speak to builder about the possibility of changing the wiring spec (and how expensive that would be). Is there any other way to integrate heating into comfort? I could not find too much on the topic in the Comfort forum.

I am sure it can be done. Prior to me using velbus, I was using X10 in pretty much the exact same way, just an x10 controled relay rather than a velbus controlled relay. As long as you can wire a relay into your system, then there are lots of options, probably even a zwave relay, but you would need to look into this a bit further, or perhaps some others on the forum can advise.

I didn't realize that the Comfort SCSs had temp included. How do you connect the SCS to the main unit. What is the maximum amount of SCSs that you can have? Also, (albeit trivial) how do you label to switches?

The scs's are connected back to comfort in exact same way as the keypads, except they dont use mic and spkr connections. I cant remember the max amount, it might be 6, but I could be wrong. THere are also some nice new SCS's switches comming out which look really nice!

Do I need an extra program or in the Ethernet UMC all I need?

Programming is done using comfigruator, and is free to download and use

However, I don't understand what the benefit of wiring the internal doors would be? RIR's - yes, external doors - yes. But how does internal door sensors help? What information would that give you besides that you forgot to close the door? Surely the PIR in each room is sufficient?

Activating lights based on things such as entering a room, or helping to dettect occupancy. Just described this on previous post, but basically on our bathroom for example, opening door turns light on and starts a timer to turn it off again. The PIR inside the bathroom if it is triggered, and the door is closed, will pause that timer, as it knows there is someone in the room, and the door is closed. The opening of the door again, restarts the timer to turn the loght off again. Rcessed door closers are important here also, to ensure the door is always closed automattically, again a chea and cheerful solution, that is worth putting in even without any automation I think (on some rooms).