First foray into HA

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  • Vangelis
    Automated Home Guru
    • Sep 2009
    • 131

    #16
    Not affiliated to Cytech at all - I just was in your position some years back and stumbled onto the Comfort system by chance. Not looked back since. They are even starting to look at the aesthetics for the product such as KP06

    A big bonus for me is the Support Forums as there are plenty of like minded people out there (such as Wexfordman), who are more than willing to offer advice based on experience with the system. Plus Ctech's tech support both on hardware and software is really good and timely.

    Comment

    • Karam
      Automated Home Legend
      • Mar 2005
      • 863

      #17
      biccies, no problem. Its definitely a case of horses for courses with these technologies. I only picked up on your thread when I noticed that you were seeking more advanced automation i.e. rather than the more usual scheduling or lighting based on sunrise/sunset tables type of thing.

      Though I'm obviously an ambassador for it I'm not trying to push you to go for an IDRATEK system - only to explain what is different about it. Despite my affiliiation I am basically an HA enthusiast and get animated about what automation means to people and that there is wider understanding of the differences in philosophy. IMO its not like comparing a bunch of cars but rather different modes of transport. And in this the various pros and cons will obviously suit different peoples' requirements differently.

      To achieve a higher level of automation you do need comprehensive sensing. For example to automate a light in a room you need to know occupancy and light level in that room (aside from any scheduled or manual directives). A simple PIR arrangement in that room will just give you motion detection which then needs long timeouts, constant hand waving or some other deliberate action which can get irritating on the one hand or not energy efficient on the other so not very practical. Sunset/sunrise times or even a single outside light level sensor won't tell you much about the actual light level in a given room at all times. If you want zoned heating control then a temperature sensor is required in each zone and so on. So what I'm saying is that to do the job properly you end up needing a large number of devices. Hence the 'ugly' units you refer to usually can provide a full suite of high calibre sensors or power controls in one package and the connectivity of all these is then through a single bus cable to that module, so no rats nest central node despite the scale. Wiring at the low voltage side of things is straightforward for most systems and no less ours when you consider the scale. The main problem area of wiring is when you have to interface to mains i.e you need to get someone qualified either to do it or inspect it. Off the shelf wireless devices may mitigate some of this but unfortunately cannot yet give us some of the exacting properties that we require in some areas.

      The aesthetics are difficult to address, even for large companies. Someone will always want something in steel, brass or glass or different shape and next year it wil be something else. One way to have more choice for most systems is to use off the shelf switch plates connected into hidden modules but really this just addresses the switch side of things and, in our case, not the sensory modules nor specialised modules like our panels. In defense of our own products' style, sad reflection of our promotional skills - we are told they look better in the flesh . BTW the history is that we wanted them to be deliberately understated - don't ask..

      Comment

      • biccies
        Automated Home Jr Member
        • Nov 2012
        • 39

        #18
        Thanks Karam. I prefer the Comfort system because it gives the freedom of choice with automation systems. I'd prefer to not get "locked in" to one manufacturer. I suppose 'ugly' was a bit harsh of me, the modules do seem better suited to a commercial setting rather than the home.
        It's a good point that you make with motion/presence detectors. I always intended to use presence and light detectors for the automation of lighting, and there's a fair few available. My understanding of the comfort system is that I could use a 'standard' presence sense connected to a 'zone' on the Comfort panel, or a Z-Wave sensor for the set-up.

        Thank you, again, everyone for your input it's much appreciated

        Comment

        • chris_j_hunter
          Automated Home Legend
          • Dec 2007
          • 1713

          #19
          FWIW - what we found, our experience :

          when we started-out, we were looking for automation that would work the lighting & heating & look after security, flag-up problems of whatever sort, allow us to make inputs & adjustments & take-over when necessary, and do it all intelligently (albeit we could not have spelled-out what we meant by that) ...

          some Googling threw-up a short-list - KNX, C-Bus, Comfort, Dupline, Niko Home Control, Velbus, EnOcean, Idratek ...

          first two seemed v.capable, and the first offered truly multi-source options & some v.attractive face-plates etc - but both seemed expensive & not-so easily accessible for DIY ...

          third seemed more affordable, more DIY-friendly, and not unattractive, but appeared to have quite low limits on number of devices & interfaces it could support ...

          fourth seemed simple & robust ...

          fifth seemed attractive & offered prospect of tying-in AV as-well, but seemed expensive & appeared not to be DIY ...

          sixth was only just coming-out, so offered limited options - much better now, of course, but still seems quite expensive ...

          seventh was also a bit too-new, at the time, but offered prospect of a truly wireless solution ...

          after more than a little deliberation, we went for the eighth - everything put-together, it seemed both the most affordable & the most comprehensive, including plenty of options for linking to other stuff inside & outside the home ... it also seemed uniquely smart, seemingly the only one offering the possibility of fully context-aware automation without us having to forever if-then-else it all ourselves and/or intervene more than occasionally, and the only one with a thorough failure strategy ...

          aesthetically, like many, we were doubtful ... in-practice, though, of the many faceplates we now have around the house, we like them by far the most - subtle, understated, quietly in the background, doing their job, accessible when needed, pretty neat when we do look at them ...

          software wise, it uses a nicely distilled object oriented approach, at all levels - which keeps things simple, consistent, readily extendable, with all the hard-won clever-stuff simply encapsulated & readily available ...

          support is v.good ...

          capability & adaptability is great - of course there’s some learning curve, but results come quickly, adjustment & tuning & rework is easy, ability to interface with appliances & the various systems about the house is good ...

          we’ve found day-to-day real-world reliability first-rate ...

          NB: we're still installing, so not everything everywhere is up & running, but we're almost there !
          Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 1 December 2012, 08:40 PM.
          Our self-build - going further with HA...

          Comment

          • Karam
            Automated Home Legend
            • Mar 2005
            • 863

            #20
            Originally posted by biccies View Post
            I always intended to use presence and light detectors for the automation of lighting, and there's a fair few available. My understanding of the comfort system is that I could use a 'standard' presence sense connected to a 'zone' on the Comfort panel, or a Z-Wave sensor for the set-up.
            Yes but be careful because what is often called presence sensing is really just motion detection + timer

            Comment

            • Wexfordman
              Automated Home Guru
              • Nov 2005
              • 118

              #21
              At the time of my upgrade, I did look into idratek, but, rightly or wrongly, decided not to go for it in the end. It looked an excellent system, similar topology, but the two things that went against it for me was, not supported by comfort, and the look of the switches. With velbus, I had both, and the option to go for whatever brand of switch I wanted.

              Now, saying that, idratek was a close runner, those were the only two reasons I didnt go for it, but it looks like a great system, lots of stuff to play with.

              Comment

              • chris_j_hunter
                Automated Home Legend
                • Dec 2007
                • 1713

                #22
                horses for courses, of course ...

                starting-points vary, too ...

                most Idratek modules have digital inputs to which favourite switches could be connected ...

                lots of options for interpretation, too ...

                datasheets here :

                Older Datasheets Datasheets for older products can be found here.


                something to be said, as well, for considering options for switch locations ... traditional ones might not be the only option, now - they came-about in the face of constraints that might not necessarily apply today ...

                eg: if HA is switching the lights - based on presence, say - maybe no need for light-switches by door ...

                eg: having switches by a window might be helpful when looking out, to switch yard lights & open gate, say ...

                or by the bed, or sofa, or work-surface, etc ...

                eg: HA switches are input devices to the HA, so can provoke multiple things, context sensitively, depending on time of day or light-level or whatever ...

                changes are easy, too, in the light of experience, as needs evolve, etc ...

                other big pluses (for Idratek) are its interconnection capabilities (between multiple objects, at all levels) and its historical logging, which allows review & compare of variations over time, for any time-period, since the beginning - temperature, humidity, switching, motion, light-level, errors, whatever, graphically & precise instance ...

                objects being anything from individual sensors to complete heating & ventilation & lighting & security management arrangements, etc ...
                Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 4 December 2012, 02:18 AM. Reason: further thoughts
                Our self-build - going further with HA...

                Comment

                • biccies
                  Automated Home Jr Member
                  • Nov 2012
                  • 39

                  #23
                  The Idratek system looks very powerful, although it does appear there is more electrical work required with it. I don't mind doing some minor work, but Comfort seems to offer a system that is still powerful without as much electrical work required.
                  If I having a house built, something like Idratek would be the way forward. However, I require an effective retrofit- and one that I can slowly expand.

                  Comment

                  • chris_j_hunter
                    Automated Home Legend
                    • Dec 2007
                    • 1713

                    #24
                    not sure I follow that ... IIUC, wiring-wise, the disruption-factor seems much the same ...









                    or even to favour Idratek - ie: Idratek wiring topology is free to choose (things can be wired back to the centre and/or off each other, as convenient, so long as at least one goes back to the centre) while Comfort needs everything run back to the centre (not sure about Velbus, but they seem to assume things will be, too)

                    anyway, good luck - it was just your post #10 that we were picking-up on ... don't forget to post on how it goes !
                    Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 5 December 2012, 09:39 AM.
                    Our self-build - going further with HA...

                    Comment

                    • biccies
                      Automated Home Jr Member
                      • Nov 2012
                      • 39

                      #25
                      With Comfort the only wiring I'll need to do will be for the alarm and intruder sensors. I can use Z-Wave or even LightwaveRF for the automation.

                      Comment

                      • chris_j_hunter
                        Automated Home Legend
                        • Dec 2007
                        • 1713

                        #26
                        thanks - good luck !
                        Our self-build - going further with HA...

                        Comment

                        • Wexfordman
                          Automated Home Guru
                          • Nov 2005
                          • 118

                          #27
                          Originally posted by biccies View Post
                          With Comfort the only wiring I'll need to do will be for the alarm and intruder sensors. I can use Z-Wave or even LightwaveRF for the automation.
                          I would be carefull about that statement too. With any automation setup, one of the most important pieces is giving the system the ability to sense as much as possible, so I would not look at comfort wiring simply as cableing out requirements for a standard alarm system.

                          I would propose you exeed the requirements of a normal system, includng wiring door sensors to internal doors, allowing for wiring for temp sensors, internal keypads, scs switches etc. If you are in a new build or renovtion, I would propose you relook at the entire 220v wiring schematic also, and go for a modular dinrail system rather than a wireless system if you can (cheaper and better).

                          But in anycase, sensors are the most important bit, dont limit it to just to external door and internal motion sensors!

                          Comment

                          • biccies
                            Automated Home Jr Member
                            • Nov 2012
                            • 39

                            #28
                            Its a good point wexford, I've been looking for some presence sensors that I could use in a standard alarm wiring. I agree that more sensors is best. The main goal is automating lighting and then heating. I'm happy to look at any system but I'd prefer to not undertake massive electrical works. I'm happy to run data cable as I intend to run CAT5 for Ethernet purposes so can always run additional cable.
                            Irdatek looks promising but my understanding is that it would require rewiring lighting to a central location.
                            Comfort is my current favourite but looks like it would require a lot of programming. It also needs extra modules buying for it.
                            My other option is to use zwave controller on a PC and find a software solution (I'd buy a desperate dedicated alarm system)

                            Comment

                            • Wexfordman
                              Automated Home Guru
                              • Nov 2005
                              • 118

                              #29
                              I'll speak from the perspective of comfort again, and not being an idratek user, I am sure others can comment better on idratek.
                              You need to look at comfort as both an alarm system, and a HA controler, so its an integrated system. It controls whatever ha protocol you add to it, and integrates the alarm and sensors together as well. So, a pir or door sensor on your comfort system, not only does the security function, but also uses these same sensors for HA. If you use a seperate controler, such as a zwave controler on a pc, then you will need seperate sensors wired to the controller as well, meaning twice the amount of sensors.

                              So, by integrating security and HA into once device, you not only reduce the sensors, you also make it easier to mamage actions based on security mode etc. For example, a motion sensor might activate a light based on different security status, away mode, night mode etc, and comfort can do that within itself.

                              Simple example, a corridor light which is a main pathway for route to the toilet at night from the bedrooms. When the system is armed to night mode, you want the corridor light to turn on for 3 minutes and then off again. Or if its not armed to night mode, and its dark, you might want the light to turn on for 20 minutes instead, or perhaps even leave it to manual control only.

                              Another example, is you come home after dark, and the alarm is armed to away mode. When you enter the house, the entry lights are turned on, and then when you disarm the alarm, it turns on the main living area lights for the route into the house.

                              Basically, without being able to integrate your security system into your HA system, you are going to be limited in the functions you can get your system to do, without having to do some complex integration and wiring of alarm system outputs to your zwave controller inputs.

                              Comfort is DIYable, it does require programming, and a bit of a learning curve, but its exceptionaly powerful and flexible.

                              Hope this makes sense!

                              Comment

                              • chris_j_hunter
                                Automated Home Legend
                                • Dec 2007
                                • 1713

                                #30
                                >rewiring lighting to a central location ...

                                not necessary with Idratek - free topolgy, works both ways, so can or not, as you choose - so do whatever's easiest given local circumstances ...

                                it's very flexible, easy to add-to later, too ...
                                Our self-build - going further with HA...

                                Comment

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