First foray into HA

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  • biccies
    Automated Home Jr Member
    • Nov 2012
    • 39

    #31
    Wexford, which sensors are you using? I'm worried that a standard PIR will not be sensitive enough to know if a room is occupied or not. For example when watching TV you will be not normally moving enough for a sensor to detect it.

    Comment

    • chris_j_hunter
      Automated Home Legend
      • Dec 2007
      • 1713

      #32
      presence sensing is better done by more than just by motion sensing on a PIR ...

      using clues from other sensors, too, can help a lot ...

      eg: no movement for a while, but have you left the room - door sensors & PIRs in the next room would likely show if you have ...

      etc etc etc ...

      Idratek does all this & more ...
      Our self-build - going further with HA...

      Comment

      • Karam
        Automated Home Legend
        • Mar 2005
        • 863

        #33
        Originally posted by biccies View Post
        Irdatek looks promising but my understanding is that it would require rewiring lighting to a central location.
        Just by way of explanation: It is possible to use switching or dimming pattress box type modules but you'd still have to run a bus cable to these. It can sometimes be more cost effective and in some ways easier to run some lighting cable to the lighting fixtures and control a number of light circuits using 4 channel DIN rail style modules located in a ceiling void / loft. So the old wiring is still in place 'in parallel' and you'd then disconnect and probably blank off the old manual switches.

        I agree that wireless modules would be electrically easier for retro fit. We're not so keen on types that can't be interrogated because this breaks some automation requirements and we end up having to treat them mostly as 'dumb' on/off loads, hence a bit of reluctance to include more such interfaces beyond our early foray into Rako and X10 (groan). Z-wave might be a bit more of a contender in this respect.

        BTW I've noted Chris's posts . He doesn't work for IDRATEK incase you wondered, but I'm aware that he has a rather large installation...

        Comment

        • biccies
          Automated Home Jr Member
          • Nov 2012
          • 39

          #34
          As I've said before, the IDRATEK system does appear to be very powerful. The draw backs for me, and they are personal tome and not knocking the system, are the appearance of the modules and the electrical work required.
          Comfort allows me to choose a protocol such as zwave and I can run data cable to what ever sensors I decide upon.

          Comment

          • chris_j_hunter
            Automated Home Legend
            • Dec 2007
            • 1713

            #35
            must say I'm now very much regretting having got involved in this discussion - was only trying to be helpful & counter apparent misconceptions, or so I thought, but it's all got rather out of hand !

            anyway, as I said, good luck ..
            Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 10 December 2012, 01:04 PM.
            Our self-build - going further with HA...

            Comment

            • biccies
              Automated Home Jr Member
              • Nov 2012
              • 39

              #36
              Chris, I sincerely apologise if I've offended you. I appreciate everyone's input to this thread. I really like the look of IDRATEK as cortex and reflex seem to suit my needs perfectly. Especially the presence detection. The only problem is that I'm not willing to do the electrical work. If it was the case of swapping a traditional switch with a module and running cat5 it would be perfect for me. Or even better if the software could interface with other HA protocols.

              Comment

              • chris_j_hunter
                Automated Home Legend
                • Dec 2007
                • 1713

                #37
                don't worry, no offence taken ... 'twas nothing you said ...
                Our self-build - going further with HA...

                Comment

                • pbj
                  Automated Home Sr Member
                  • Jul 2004
                  • 57

                  #38
                  We've got a small-ish Idratek installation. As everyone has said the choice is absolutely horses for courses with a fair lump of personal bias thrown in (that's being human). Rather than get into the whys and wherefores of what I wanted the system to do (mostly covered above) I wanted to post to put the record straight on Idratek's looks!

                  I'd nearly passed Idratek by as I wasn't a big fan of the look either, but with help from Karam and a bit of homework, I'm pleased with the look of our Idratek system (I'm really pleased with Idratek itself). I've attached a few photos of a switch and a PIR/light sensor. They're not great photos, but hopefully they give you a flavour of how Idratek can look.

                  Here's a typical switch - how I'd wished I'd found an alternative to heatmiser from a looks/ease of use standpoint
                  P1040284.jpg

                  Up close
                  P1040283.jpg

                  We have a number of different switch configurations for different rooms. The switches also have LEDs, but I don't bother with them.

                  Spot the PIR!
                  P1040286.jpg

                  It's beyond the light.
                  P1040285.jpg

                  Whilst I'm here, I'd also say that Karam and Viv are the most helpful guys I've come across in a long time...

                  It doesn't really help your choice, but I feel better! Good luck.

                  Peter.

                  Comment

                  • biccies
                    Automated Home Jr Member
                    • Nov 2012
                    • 39

                    #39
                    Thanks peter! Looks like a very nice setup you have there. Could you give us a bit more detail, how its worked and which modules you have used?
                    Karam did mention in a previous post that there were some modules that could be retrofitted, did you use these?

                    Comment

                    • pbj
                      Automated Home Sr Member
                      • Jul 2004
                      • 57

                      #40
                      I went for a centralised system using the DIN rail modules as we were putting in all the wiring. Our set up uses Jung (www.jung.de) switches (they are just straight momentary switches) connected to an Idratek module (a DIO to be precise). The DIOs are flashed as switch modules to make the Cortex set up easy. I took the face plate off the the DIO modules which are in the back box behind the Jung switch. This worked well in those walls which are just stud work as there's loads of space, it was a bit more of a pain in the brick walls, but still do-able

                      For the PIRs I took the face plate off and mounted the PIR itself on a couple of flying leads so I had flexibility of where the PIR went for best detection. The Idratek PCB is hidden in the ceiling void near a down lighter hole for easy-ish access.

                      I'm not an expert on the Idratek relay modules, but they also have volt free inputs, so I guess that a similar scheme to mine would probably work (as long as you isolate mains and LV connections property and safely). That way you'd still have to get CAT5 to each switch point, but you wouldn't need to change the mains wiring.

                      I suspect our set up is simple in Idra-world (and we certainly ask less of it than Chris' set up). Apart from PIRs and light sensors we have a couple of door magnets and stair tread pads which help with the presence sensing. We also use it to control the gate and interface with an IP camera at the gate to take smiley photos of visitors. I've also used the API to hook up a bit of custom stuff with an Arduino to control some RGB LEDs via DMX, so there really is no limit if you want to take it beyond the Idratek modules.

                      We're probably half way between your and Karam's vision of home automation and the more usual "remote control" style - the are some "pathway" lights which come on with presence and darkness and some who's scene is only controlled by a switch. It works for us and we can move more in one direction or the other at a whim.

                      One day I will interface it to the burglar alarm and the heatmiser controlled central heating which both look eminently do-able.

                      Comment

                      • Wexfordman
                        Automated Home Guru
                        • Nov 2005
                        • 118

                        #41
                        Originally posted by pbj View Post
                        We've got a small-ish Idratek installation. As everyone has said the choice is absolutely horses for courses with a fair lump of personal bias thrown in (that's being human). Rather than get into the whys and wherefores of what I wanted the system to do (mostly covered above) I wanted to post to put the record straight on Idratek's looks!

                        I'd nearly passed Idratek by as I wasn't a big fan of the look either, but with help from Karam and a bit of homework, I'm pleased with the look of our Idratek system (I'm really pleased with Idratek itself). I've attached a few photos of a switch and a PIR/light sensor. They're not great photos, but hopefully they give you a flavour of how Idratek can look.

                        Here's a typical switch - how I'd wished I'd found an alternative to heatmiser from a looks/ease of use standpoint
                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]292[/ATTACH]

                        Up close
                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]291[/ATTACH]

                        We have a number of different switch configurations for different rooms. The switches also have LEDs, but I don't bother with them.

                        Spot the PIR!
                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]294[/ATTACH]

                        It's beyond the light.
                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]293[/ATTACH]

                        Whilst I'm here, I'd also say that Karam and Viv are the most helpful guys I've come across in a long time...

                        It doesn't really help your choice, but I feel better! Good luck.

                        Peter.
                        Hi Peter,

                        Lovely looking system, like the switches...a lot. Are they standard momentary using twisted pair to idratek inputs ? That would certainly give more flexibility and choice for an install!

                        Comment

                        • Wexfordman
                          Automated Home Guru
                          • Nov 2005
                          • 118

                          #42
                          Originally posted by biccies View Post
                          Wexford, which sensors are you using? I'm worried that a standard PIR will not be sensitive enough to know if a room is occupied or not. For example when watching TV you will be not normally moving enough for a sensor to detect it.
                          Hi,

                          I am using standard PIR and door sensors (concealed door sensors) in most rooms. In the living room I have a dualtec PIR to stop false alarms when the fire/stove is lighting. I also have a standard on/off thermostat located behind the stove which tells my system when the stove is lighting (stove has a backboiler, so when its lighting, I want my zoned heating to react accordingly).

                          From a presence sensing perspective, in rooms that are suitable, I use a logic of motion sensing and door status. For example, in the bathroom, when the door is opened and its dark, the bathroom light is turned on and a timer is started. When the PIR in the bathroom detects movemeent, and the bathroom door is closed, then the timer is paused until the the door is opened again. This pretty much gaurantees that the light is always on when the room is occupied. I also fitted recessed spring door closers to the bathrooms (about 10 euro each) which helps make sure this works 100%, as the door is then always closed.

                          For other rooms, such as kitchen, I simply do pir and timer actions, as this room is normally quite active, same for corridoors etc. The living room, the lights are automated, but I dont have them activating based on any sensors, I have a few macros on the iphone app to setup depending on what you want to do. I could add presence detection based on and combination offire lighting, motion, detecting IR from the remotes etc, but just havnt got round to this yet, its on the list!!

                          Comment

                          • Vangelis
                            Automated Home Guru
                            • Sep 2009
                            • 131

                            #43
                            Hi Wexfordman,

                            How did you find running the door contact cabling?? I live in a 2 story property, so upstairs is not a drama as I can run into the loft-space, but downstairs is a frustration as I have no access to the ceiling void, either from above or below, and the coving is in place. Short or running the cables via the carpet grippers I am running short of ideas.

                            Did you multiplex them at all to save on cable runs?

                            Comment

                            • Wexfordman
                              Automated Home Guru
                              • Nov 2005
                              • 118

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Vangelis View Post
                              Hi Wexfordman,

                              How did you find running the door contact cabling?? I live in a 2 story property, so upstairs is not a drama as I can run into the loft-space, but downstairs is a frustration as I have no access to the ceiling void, either from above or below, and the coving is in place. Short or running the cables via the carpet grippers I am running short of ideas.

                              Did you multiplex them at all to save on cable runs?
                              Hi, I was fortuneate enough, I have a bungalow, so was relatively easy to rewire.I did structure the cabling though, using krone blocks to reduce the number of runs etc. I did a bit of a write up on it if you are interested, you can see it here :-


                              Access Google Drive with a Google account (for personal use) or Google Workspace account (for business use).

                              Comment

                              • Wexfordman
                                Automated Home Guru
                                • Nov 2005
                                • 118

                                #45
                                Just on the rewiring or running sensor cable, if your doing any redecorating at all its actually not a huge job to chase out a small channel and fill it in again. I did do it with one door last year and you would never know it was there!

                                Comment

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