Heat Genius

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  • Hot
    Automated Home Sr Member
    • Oct 2014
    • 50

    #31
    Heath Genius and Danfoss Valves

    Originally posted by DGE View Post
    Hot
    Another question if I may. It looks like the TRVs I have may not be compatible so I will have to run some kind of test to make sure I buy what I need.

    I assume that HG ship the sensor only for the Danfoss valve, not the valve body as well, but it would help if you could confirm that. This would mean that if my valves do need replacing, I would be best to get the whole valve and have the job done in one.

    This then means that I have to make sure I get the right valves, my approach to installations like this is usually to single source everything but that looks impossible in this case. I haven't been able to find precise product details on the Heat Genius site but I can see you mention the LG-13, do you have a manufacturers part number by any chance, this would not be the time to have the wrong parts fitted.
    You are right about that HG only ship the LC13 TRV controller head - I think they sell them £5 cheaper than you can buy them anywhere else. My recommendation is for you to buy the head from HG as they will provide you with worry free upgrades if necessary. As for the TRV valves I bought mine new from Gumtree and eBay. I am using the following TRVs: Danfoss RAS - C2 Combi These valves can be had for £5 each - you save a small fortune. I also bought on eBay addition connector so I can connect a hose to the radiator to flush the radiator out when it is necessary. I will take few photos of my installation and post them here so there is no misunderstanding.

    What is the diameter of the pipe that connects to your radiator? It is also important to know how your pipes connect into your radiators?
    Last edited by Hot; 8 December 2014, 02:59 PM. Reason: Text changes and corrections
    I am totally independent writer and my writing is not skewed in any way by receiving payment for my writing. I reduce my gas bills by using Heat Genius Smart Intelligent Heating Controls with more efficient Column radiators.

    Comment

    • mamoulian
      Automated Home Jr Member
      • Dec 2014
      • 14

      #32
      Originally posted by Hot View Post

      It's not the LC13 TRVs that controls what the temperature should be in the room. It is the tiny Philio 3 in 1 Sensor (Motion, Illumination, Temperature). This rather small but highly accurate Temperature room sensor measures the temperature and any movement in the room. It is this sensor that provides the necessary communication in order to accurately control the temperature inside each Zone or a room.
      Thanks for your helpful comments here Hot!

      RE the above, do we need the motion detectors to tell the temperature of the room? I assumed the radiator TRV had a temperature sensor in it, just like conventional TRVs do, it's suggested on Heat Genius' site that you can do rooom temperature with just these and that the motion sensors are a bonus to auto-set the timing. Evohome must work like that as it doesn't have the motion sensor option... or are their TRVs better?

      I much prefer how the HG works locally in case of no internet; it seems mad that Evohome needs internet to even have local control using mobile apps over wifi!

      Comment

      • Hot
        Automated Home Sr Member
        • Oct 2014
        • 50

        #33
        One Smart Heating System with overwrites in a emergency

        Originally posted by mamoulian View Post
        Thanks for your helpful comments here Hot!

        RE the above, do we need the motion detectors to tell the temperature of the room? I assumed the radiator TRV had a temperature sensor in it, just like conventional TRVs do, it's suggested on Heat Genius' site that you can do rooom temperature with just these and that the motion sensors are a bonus to auto-set the timing. Evohome must work like that as it doesn't have the motion sensor option... or are their TRVs better?

        I much prefer how the HG works locally in case of no internet; it seems mad that Evohome needs internet to even have local control using mobile apps over wifi!
        Dear Mamoulian

        I am glad you find my comments here on Automated Home about Heat Genius helpful.

        Yes the motion detectors are needed to tell the temperature of each room or a Zone. The radiator TRV only shows what the the set temperature is on the TRV.

        However, you are right about that the radiator TRV have temperature sensors built in - actually each TRV has two heat sensors. One measures the temperature of the water flowing into the radiator and the other one becomes only active when the TRV is either in a emergency shut down mode i.e. the sensor has detected that the temperature has rapidly dropped over a given time or if the Heat Genius Hub is not available for whatever reason. In a scenario when you cannot access the Heat Genius Hub you can run the TRV just like an ordinary TRV - you set the heat by pressing the up or down arrows and the Smart TRV's will operate happily in this mode. The will still be very intelligently but they will rely on their built in fuzzy control which are very impressive.

        Just so you are sure how this works - you can try this out by unplugging the Heat Genius Hub completely and you will still be able to operate the system through your TRV and one digital room thermostat that is supplied with your basic system. I have actually tried this out and I am very impressed with this feature as we know one day we might have to rely on this in a emergency.

        I do rate the Heat Genius Smart TRV higher than Evohome. Heat Genius has more features like for example you can configure 30 Zones with Heat Genius versus 12 Zones with Evohome. You also have Charting as standard in Heat Genius and Footprint Mode but don't get me wrong Evohome is pretty intelligent also.

        I agree with you wholeheartedly that we may never become over dependant on technology. We must have manual overwrite when the technology plays trick on use and the gremlins come out of the woodwork.
        Last edited by Hot; 22 December 2014, 10:49 PM.
        I am totally independent writer and my writing is not skewed in any way by receiving payment for my writing. I reduce my gas bills by using Heat Genius Smart Intelligent Heating Controls with more efficient Column radiators.

        Comment

        • mamoulian
          Automated Home Jr Member
          • Dec 2014
          • 14

          #34
          Originally posted by Hot View Post
          ... actually each TRV has two heat sensors. One measures the temperature of the water flowing into the radiator and the other one becomes only active when the TRV is either in a emergency shut down mode
          Thanks again Hot. This isn't explained very well on the Heat Genius website, it suggests that the rooms sensors are an optional extra just for detecting people's presence so it can enable footprint mode. I'll have to discuss this with Heat Genius before purchase. It seems odd that traditional non-smart TRVs can detect the room temperature and these ones cannot. The extra cost of a sensor per room pushes the total price up given that I'm not interested in footprint mode right now.

          Originally posted by Hot View Post
          Just so you are sure how this works - you can try this out by unplugging the Heat Genius Hub completely and you will still be able to operate the system through your TRV and one digital room thermostat that is supplied with your basic system. I have actually tried this out and I am very impressed with this feature as we know one day we might have to rely on this in a emergency.
          That's interesting... I understand that in that scenario each TRV would work on its own so I could go around the house turning the temps up/down on them as required, and the boiler controller has buttons on it to turn the boiler on/off, so what does the thermostat do? Does it talk to the TRVs? Which ones?

          Thanks!

          Comment

          • Hot
            Automated Home Sr Member
            • Oct 2014
            • 50

            #35
            Originally posted by mamoulian View Post
            Thanks again Hot. This isn't explained very well on the Heat Genius website, it suggests that the rooms sensors are an optional extra just for detecting people's presence so it can enable footprint mode. I'll have to discuss this with Heat Genius before purchase. It seems odd that traditional non-smart TRVs can detect the room temperature and these ones cannot. The extra cost of a sensor per room pushes the total price up given that I'm not interested in footprint mode right now.



            That's interesting... I understand that in that scenario each TRV would work on its own so I could go around the house turning the temps up/down on them as required, and the boiler controller has buttons on it to turn the boiler on/off, so what does the thermostat do? Does it talk to the TRVs? Which ones?

            Thanks!
            Mamoulian

            The digital room thermostat that is currently shipped as part of the Heat Genius startup kit, will as far as I understand eventually provide a dual role. In the first instance it works as an emergency overwrite control in case something happens to the Hub, Internet etc. In an emergency the thermostat will act as a “Room Thermostat” for the whole house but as you will also have Smart TRV’s installed on your radiators it will work in collaboration with your TRV’s to control your heating. In a scenario of Internet meltdown the digital room thermostat will talk to the boiler controller, who then will fire up the boiler on demand. Each Smart TRV will act independently but in this type of scenario you must not have the curtains pulled over the TRV or place heavy furniture closer than 30 cm from the TRV.

            Its second role in the near future will be to give you a quick master access to turn the heating to “Away” setting. In other words you will be able to turn the dial up or down on departure or on arrival to your home – this can of course also be accomplished with your mobile or PC device or auto sensed by the Footprint mode but the Footprint mode can incidentally give you slightly more energy saving than any other part of the system.

            The room sensors are optional but from my own experience and energy saving measurement the room sensors give me the biggest energy savings or around 32 percent. Having Smart TRVs on my radiators allows me to be able to close the curtains over the Smart TRV sensors and I can have heavy furniture close to the Smart TRV – in other words the multi-sensor wall thermostats plays a big role to control my heating and saving me a small fortune in heating bills. It is also the multi-sensor that gives you the reading for the room temperature and feeds heating info to the Heat Genius Hub that then will decide if the heat is to be raised or lowered.

            After measuring the use of gas when operating with the new Heat Genius TRV Controllers I estimate that I am now saving somewhere between 43-46%. This might sound a lot but it is as near as I can work it out.

            Before I started upgrading my heating system I had fairly accurate energy measurements for my house and I worked it out that my energy savings improved by 11-14 percent just by fitting TRVs to each radiator but my heating bills were lowered further by 32 percent when I installed the Heat Genius Smart TRV and wall thermostats – I am now operating on the “Footprint mode” and this will give me further improvements but I don’t have enough accurate energy measurements yet to be able to say how much.

            My house is well insulated, but I can tell you in full honesty that buying into the Heat Genius System is still one of the best investments I have made.
            Last edited by Hot; 23 December 2014, 01:07 PM. Reason: Text errors
            I am totally independent writer and my writing is not skewed in any way by receiving payment for my writing. I reduce my gas bills by using Heat Genius Smart Intelligent Heating Controls with more efficient Column radiators.

            Comment

            • TimJWatts
              Automated Home Jr Member
              • Nov 2013
              • 21

              #36
              I have a question for Hot which I don't think has been covered here:

              What happens if Heat Genius go bust, bought out or for any reason their server disappears?

              Is there a local web server on the hub - or does it become unconfigurable at that point?

              Cheers,

              Tim

              EDIT - just reread Hot's review: http://www.wordpress-1219309-4387497...-controls.html

              Johannes Jensson said in a comment:

              "You can login by either connecting through the Heat Genius Website – this gives you access to your system through their server. However, you can also access your Heat Genius System through your Mobile devices (Android or iOS) and this will connect you directly to your local Heat Genius Hub.

              I know for a fact that the guys at Heat Genius are working on a upgrade that allows you to control your heating without having to login either through their server or use your mobile device."


              So even if HG go bye bye, my investment is not wasted?
              Last edited by TimJWatts; 17 January 2015, 10:14 AM.

              Comment

              • Hot
                Automated Home Sr Member
                • Oct 2014
                • 50

                #37
                What happens if the worst case scenario happens?

                Originally posted by TimJWatts View Post
                I have a question for Hot which I don't think has been covered here:

                What happens if Heat Genius go bust, bought out or for any reason their server disappears?

                Is there a local web server on the hub - or does it become unconfigurable at that point?

                Cheers,

                Tim

                EDIT - just reread Hot's review: http://www.wordpress-1219309-4387497...-controls.html

                Johannes Jensson said in a comment:

                "You can login by either connecting through the Heat Genius Website – this gives you access to your system through their server. However, you can also access your Heat Genius System through your Mobile devices (Android or iOS) and this will connect you directly to your local Heat Genius Hub.

                I know for a fact that the guys at Heat Genius are working on a upgrade that allows you to control your heating without having to login either through their server or use your mobile device."


                So even if HG go bye bye, my investment is not wasted?

                Tim

                When I bought my Heat Genius system I asked myself this same question as you are asking and my answer then is as relevant as it is today - if anything the risk has gone down considerably as Heat Genius has become well established in the UK and you only have to read some of the Smart Heating awards they have received since their launch to see that I am not the only person out there to think that buying into the Heat Genius solution is a good idea and a solution that will give you a good, low risk "Return on your investment"

                If the worst case scenario happened and Heat Genius went bust your system will operate fully just as before and the same would happen if the Heat Genius server gives up for whatever reason. You will still be able to access "all functions" through your mobile phone or on your Tablet.

                I am aware that Heat Genius is about to launch an upgrade that will make this even easier. This new software upgrade will also allow you to control your system even though you don't have internet access or if your Heat Genius system Hub breaks down. When you buy into Heat Genius you will get all the necessary hardware to operate with the expected upgrade and without having to pay a penny more.

                You are correct when you say that your investment will not be wasted if "HG go bye bye"

                If however Heat Genius was taken over then I am sure any company taking them over will continue developing their Z-Wave hardware and software solution further - again this would make it even less risky investment.
                Last edited by Hot; 18 January 2015, 12:32 AM. Reason: Additional text
                I am totally independent writer and my writing is not skewed in any way by receiving payment for my writing. I reduce my gas bills by using Heat Genius Smart Intelligent Heating Controls with more efficient Column radiators.

                Comment

                • TimJWatts
                  Automated Home Jr Member
                  • Nov 2013
                  • 21

                  #38
                  Hi Hot,

                  Thanks for the reply - sounds like you are pleased with the system.

                  So the hub runs a local webserver? Or does the phone App scan the local network for a hub and use an API?

                  Whilst I admire your optimism - I have a cynical streak. You only have to look at the services Google created then killed when it got bored of them, or of companies who bought another company for their staff or an alogrithm and then killed the product.

                  However, HG seems to be the only system that combines occupancy detection (like NEST and Tado) with multiple zones (unlike NEST) and is genuinely flexible and upgradable on the fly.

                  It would also be utterly trivial to add Geofencing in as a function of the app, depending on Tado's patents.

                  Comment

                  • TimJWatts
                    Automated Home Jr Member
                    • Nov 2013
                    • 21

                    #39
                    One other question -

                    The Danfoss Zwave TRVs do not have a published ZWave packet for "calling for heat" from the boiler.

                    Am I right that if a user ups the temperature on the radiator valve with HG, that will turn the boiler on (if required)?

                    If so, I presume HG have used one of the undocumented ZWave proprietary commands?

                    Comment

                    • Hot
                      Automated Home Sr Member
                      • Oct 2014
                      • 50

                      #40
                      "calling for heat"

                      Originally posted by TimJWatts View Post
                      One other question -

                      The Danfoss Zwave TRVs do not have a published ZWave packet for "calling for heat" from the boiler.

                      Am I right that if a user ups the temperature on the radiator valve with HG, that will turn the boiler on (if required)?

                      If so, I presume HG have used one of the undocumented ZWave proprietary commands?
                      Tim

                      It is the wall/ room thermostat that calls for heat from the Heat Genius Hub. The Heat Genius Hub will then talk to the boiler controller that ignites the gas boiler. However if you want to up the temperature on the radiator valve by using your PC, Mobile or Tablet the Heat Genius App will notify the Heat Genius Hub and again the boiler controller is notified and the heat is raised.

                      Heat Genius does use few of the undocumented Z Wave proprietary commands but I am aware of one that speeds up the response time of the Smart Thermostat Radiator Valve but there are many more.
                      Last edited by Hot; 18 January 2015, 04:52 PM. Reason: Additional text and correction
                      I am totally independent writer and my writing is not skewed in any way by receiving payment for my writing. I reduce my gas bills by using Heat Genius Smart Intelligent Heating Controls with more efficient Column radiators.

                      Comment

                      • TimJWatts
                        Automated Home Jr Member
                        • Nov 2013
                        • 21

                        #41
                        OK - it is only that I'm sure HG claim somewhere you can manually adjust the Danfoss rad valves.

                        Well, yes you can, but it's only meaningful if that gets flagged up to the controller.

                        Comment

                        • Hot
                          Automated Home Sr Member
                          • Oct 2014
                          • 50

                          #42
                          The Heat Genius Hub is capable of running anonymous

                          Originally posted by TimJWatts View Post
                          Hi Hot,

                          Thanks for the reply - sounds like you are pleased with the system.

                          So the hub runs a local webserver? Or does the phone App scan the local network for a hub and use an API?

                          Whilst I admire your optimism - I have a cynical streak. You only have to look at the services Google created then killed when it got bored of them, or of companies who bought another company for their staff or an alogrithm and then killed the product.

                          However, HG seems to be the only system that combines occupancy detection (like NEST and Tado) with multiple zones (unlike NEST) and is genuinely flexible and upgradable on the fly.

                          It would also be utterly trivial to add Geofencing in as a function of the app, depending on Tado's patents.

                          Tim

                          Yes I am very pleased with my Heat Genius heating system. The Heat Genius Hub is capable of running anonymous and without any link to an outside source. Yes you could say that it runs a local web-server. This is the smart thing about their system. If however, you access your heating system by using a PC on the Internet you go through their server but any other access through your TV, mobile or tablet you talk directly to the Heat Genius Hub.

                          I agree with you wholeheartedly that the world is full of companies like Google, Microsoft and other well established companies that have abandoned perfectly good system for whatever reason but this is a risk we have to accept if we want to chase the technology for our benefit and pleasure. It is a low risk but the risk is always there.

                          Don´t be surprised to see Geofencing or something similar added to the Heat Genius system in the near future - they are working on myriad of ideas - some I am aware of but others are still in their infancy stage. Personally i tend to use my mobile phone to activate my Heating before i arrive home. I keep my system logged in so it only takes a second to access and change the heat. When I come home I normally keep the system in "Footprint Mode" but I can always give the system a boost if needed.
                          Last edited by Hot; 18 January 2015, 05:12 PM.
                          I am totally independent writer and my writing is not skewed in any way by receiving payment for my writing. I reduce my gas bills by using Heat Genius Smart Intelligent Heating Controls with more efficient Column radiators.

                          Comment

                          • TimJWatts
                            Automated Home Jr Member
                            • Nov 2013
                            • 21

                            #43
                            Thanks Hot - that seems reassuring.

                            Personally I prefer to have direct access to my HA systems (I have a /27 pool of public IPs so no need for NAT, port forwarding and all that broken nonsense).

                            I have a Fibaro Lite controller (doing other ZWave stuff) and that does run its own webserver - but you can also connect via their portal - but all that does is bounce you down a reverse ssh tunnel, which is elegant and simple.

                            Comment

                            • Hot
                              Automated Home Sr Member
                              • Oct 2014
                              • 50

                              #44
                              Great Problem Free Solution

                              Originally posted by TimJWatts View Post
                              Thanks Hot - that seems reassuring.

                              Personally I prefer to have direct access to my HA systems (I have a /27 pool of public IPs so no need for NAT, port forwarding and all that broken nonsense).

                              I have a Fibaro Lite controller (doing other ZWave stuff) and that does run its own webserver - but you can also connect via their portal - but all that does is bounce you down a reverse ssh tunnel, which is elegant and simple.

                              Tim

                              It looks like you have a great problem free solution. How do you like your Fibaro? I am contemplating to buy one or something similar. Any tips for me?
                              I am totally independent writer and my writing is not skewed in any way by receiving payment for my writing. I reduce my gas bills by using Heat Genius Smart Intelligent Heating Controls with more efficient Column radiators.

                              Comment

                              • TimJWatts
                                Automated Home Jr Member
                                • Nov 2013
                                • 21

                                #45
                                Hi,

                                Sure. Fibaro Lite is cheap enough and seems extremely reliable. It's been running for a couple of months with no hiccups.

                                The programming is GUI style block-logic so is limited. However it does expose a REST API so it is likely possible to get it to do simple stuff and have a remote computer do more complicated stuff.

                                It does have a good energy monitor which when combined with TKB power plugs can log energy use of key appliances.

                                The HC2 is their full-fat version with LUA programming.

                                It was certainly more "finished" than the Vera Lite because, although limited, what there is seems to work smoothly and stays working.

                                Comment

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