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Thread: Problem with PIR

  1. #1
    Automated Home Guru neilhooper's Avatar
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    Default Problem with PIR

    Hi All,

    I'm having a problem with some new PIR's, https://www.security.honeywell.com/u...02-EN_DS-Z.pdf

    For some reason when I connect them in the normal way and when they activate they seem to be sending the output hundreds of times per second to the extent that Cortex can't keep up.

    I'm surprised as they are described being 'entry level'. The strange thing is that the one's that I have used elsewhere which were left over from an alarm installation work perfectly. The only difference that I can see is that my older ones are described as having a dry contact relay; the new ones say they incorporate a 40 ohm protective resistor. Could this be the problem ?

    I would really to use these new ones as they are very much more sensitive than the older ones.

    - Neil

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    Moderator toscal's Avatar
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    What have you set the dip switch settings to. Also it could be suffering from switch bounce which might explain the multiple closures.
    IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT WITH A HAMMER, YOU'VE GOT AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM.
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  3. #3
    Automated Home Legend Karam's Avatar
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    I don't think it would be relay contact bounce. There is filtering on digital inputs so it would have to be a pretty bad relay for that to happen - not something we have commonly seen.

    First thing is check the obvious - that the connections are good.

    Next question is whether the output is indeed a relay or some kind of silicon switch. 40ohms as a current limiting resistor would not be significant to the digital input circuit assuming the switching element goes from close to 0ohms when closed (inactive) to very high impedence when open (active). If you have a multimeter you can do a check of resistance and see how it changes when PIR is active/inactive. Usually there should be a long enough dwell period to be able to see a steady value in both states. Try measuring with probes in both orientations since this might indicate if its some kind of silicon switch if the values depend on orientation. Finally, what is supplying power to the unit and is this supply 'clean'? A crude test with a multimeter can be to measure AC voltage across the supply and if you get anything substantial above 0V then suggests a problem in that department (perhaps its unregulated or faulty).

  4. #4
    Automated Home Guru neilhooper's Avatar
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    Connections are good.

    Power supply is good.

    Resistance when PIR active is 0 ohms meter is actually reading 0.L i.e. no connection

    When it changes to inactive the meter immediately changes to 0.00 and then climbs by 3 ohms approximately every half second until it stabilises at 15 ohms.

    The same happens which ever way the probes are connected.

    I have connected it to a module and watched as it powered up and it immediately starts to act exactly as before. Also I have two of these and they both do the same.

    - Neil

  5. #5
    Automated Home Legend chris_j_hunter's Avatar
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    'thought OL meant open loop, rather than 0 ohms ... ??

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    Moderator toscal's Avatar
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    What sensitivity setting do you have them on. Is it on the Low or High setting. Just thinking that I know some PIRs can be set so that they need to have three or more consecutive triggers to actually perform an alarm trigger. If not it will always trigger on the first motion detect,then trigger again on the second etc. So someone walking past the sensor will either trigger it multiple times or just once or twice depending on the setting.
    The dip switch SW2 should be set to OFF for Low sensitivity.
    IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT WITH A HAMMER, YOU'VE GOT AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM.
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  7. #7
    Automated Home Guru neilhooper's Avatar
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    I've tried with the switch set to both positions and with the connections reversed. I've even tried the 'Invert' option within Cortex all to no avail.

    Also I've just done some testing on one of my other PIR's, the older ones, and it reads OL when active and 0ohms when inactive. Obviously different to the 15ohm that these new ones read.

    At this point I'm starting to think that these will just not work with the system which is a shame considering they have really good coverage especially as they detect movement directly underneath them which is useful when mounted above a door.

    - Neil

  8. #8
    Automated Home Legend Karam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilhooper View Post
    Resistance when PIR active is 0 ohms meter is actually reading 0.L i.e. no connection
    I (and probably Chris) don't understand this statement. On the one hand you say the resistance is 0 ohms and then you say the meter reads Open Loop (O.L)? Did you just mistakenly think of O.L as meaning zero ohms rather than infinite ohms?

    Next thing to do is, with the PIR connected to the digital input and the relevant IDRATEK module powered up, measure the dc voltage between the digital input terminal and the 0V terminal (on the same terminal block). +ve probe to digital input. What value when PIR active and what value when inactive?

  9. #9
    Automated Home Guru neilhooper's Avatar
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    Voltages at the IDRATEK module are:

    Active 3.2
    Inactive 1.2

    the PIRs that are connected to this module are Dining PIR Right, Dining PIR Left and Rear Hall PIR. Dining PIR Right is the problem one.


    While this was being tested the PIR icon on the screen is flashing like a strobe light, the rest of the network stops responding and eventually it seems that something becomes overwhelmed as the PCU starts to have problems and the log file recorded this:-

    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Right
    22:15:00 < Rear Hall Pir
    22:15:00 < 91061004BA07026E
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Left
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Right
    22:15:00 < Rear Hall Pir
    22:15:00 < 91061004BA05026C
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Left
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Right
    22:15:00 < Rear Hall Pir
    22:15:00 < 91061004BA07026E
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Left
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Right
    22:15:00 < Rear Hall Pir
    22:15:00 < 91061004BA05026C
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Left
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Right
    22:15:00 < Rear Hall Pir
    22:15:00 < 91061004BA07026E
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Left
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Right
    22:15:00 < Rear Hall Pir
    22:15:00 < 91061004BA05026C
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Left
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Right
    22:15:00 < Rear Hall Pir
    22:15:00 < 91061004BA07026E
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Left
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Right
    22:15:00 < Rear Hall Pir
    22:15:00 < 91061004BA05026C
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Left
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Right
    22:15:00 < Rear Hall Pir
    22:15:00 < 91061004BA07026E
    22:15:00 < Dining PIR Left
    22:15:01 < Dining PIR Right
    22:15:01 < Rear Hall Pir
    22:15:01 < 91061004BA05026C
    22:15:01 < Dining PIR Left
    22:15:01 < Dining PIR Right
    22:15:01 < Rear Hall Pir
    22:15:01 < 91061004BA07026E
    22:15:01 < Dining PIR Left
    22:15:01 < Dining PIR Right
    22:15:01 < Rear Hall Pir
    22:15:01 < 91061004BA05026C
    22:15:01 < Dining PIR Left
    22:15:01 < Dining PIR Right
    22:15:01 < Rear Hall Pir
    22:15:01 < 91061004BA07026E
    22:15:01 < Dining PIR Left
    22:15:01 < Dining PIR Right
    22:15:01 < Rear Hall Pir
    22:15:01 I^ RS232 CHECKSUM ERROR 91061004BA056E10
    22:15:01 I^ RS232 Purge buffers
    22:15:01 I> PCU comm port reset

    There are many more repetitions of the first few lines. These are just an example.
    then this:-


    **** Auto Log on Failure detection point ****

    22:15:02 I^ Failed to transmit FF0D10002010344800120F02015505
    22:15:02 I> PCU comm port reset
    22:15:12 I^ LED Red Poll Network Timeout.
    22:15:12 I^ PCIF failed to Ack.
    22:15:12 I^ LED Red Poll failed to Ack.
    22:15:12 I< RxChar [7] =
    22:15:12 I> Last Tx Packet:
    22:15:12 I> Last Tx Address: 1034
    22:15:12 I^ RS232 Purge buffers
    22:15:12
    22:15:12 I> PCU comm port reset
    22:15:22 Failed to reset PCIF succesfully
    22:15:22 > LED Green
    22:15:22 > FF0D10002010344800120F02023E05
    22:15:33 I^ LED Green Poll Network Timeout.
    22:15:33 I^ PCIF failed to Ack.
    22:15:33 I^ LED Green Poll failed to Ack.
    22:15:33 I< RxChar [7] =
    22:15:33 I> Last Tx Packet:
    22:15:33 I> Last Tx Address: 1034
    22:15:33 I^ RS232 Purge buffers
    22:15:35 I^ PCIF reset attempts inhibited for 17s
    22:15:35 > LED Blue
    22:15:35 > FF0D10002010344800120F02033D05
    22:15:45 I^ LED Blue Poll Network Timeout.
    22:15:45 I^ PCIF failed to Ack.
    22:15:45 I^ LED Blue Poll failed to Ack.
    22:15:45 I< RxChar [7] =
    22:15:45 I> Last Tx Packet:
    22:15:45 I> Last Tx Address: 1034
    22:15:45 I^ RS232 Purge buffers
    22:15:47 I^ PCIF reset attempts inhibited for 5s
    22:15:47 > LED Red
    22:15:47 > FF0D10002010344800120F02015B05
    22:15:57 I^ LED Red Poll Network Timeout.
    22:15:57 I^ PCIF failed to Ack.
    22:15:57 I^ LED Red Poll failed to Ack.
    22:15:57 I< RxChar [7] =
    22:15:57 I> Last Tx Packet:
    22:15:57 I> Last Tx Address: 1034
    22:15:57 I^ RS232 Purge buffers

    This is repeated several times.

    Then when I reset the PCU

    22:18:56 *********************************
    22:18:56 I^ Failed to open comms to PCU/PCE
    22:18:56 Specified device not found (Com3).
    22:18:56 The cable may be unplugged from
    22:18:56 the computer to the interface, or
    22:18:56 the Idranet interface may not be
    22:18:56 powered. Error Reference (2)
    22:18:56 *********************************
    22:18:56 I^ PCIF reset attempts inhibited for 5s
    22:18:56 > LED Red
    22:18:56 > FF0D10002010344800120F02017805
    22:18:56 I^ Failed to transmit FF0D10002010344800120F02017805
    22:18:56 I> PCU comm port reset
    22:18:56 *********************************
    22:18:56 I^ Failed to open comms to PCU/PCE
    22:18:56 Specified device not found (Com3).
    22:18:56 The cable may be unplugged from
    22:18:56 the computer to the interface, or
    22:18:56 the Idranet interface may not be
    22:18:56 powered. Error Reference (3)
    22:18:56 *********************************
    22:19:06 I^ LED Red Poll Network Timeout.
    22:19:06 I^ PCIF failed to Ack.
    22:19:07 I^ LED Red Poll failed to Ack.
    22:19:07 I< RxChar [7] =
    22:19:07 I> Last Tx Packet:
    22:19:07 I> Last Tx Address: 1034
    22:19:07 I^ RS232 Purge buffers
    22:19:07
    22:19:07 I> PCU comm port reset
    22:19:17 *********************************
    22:19:17 I^ Failed to open comms to PCU/PCE
    22:19:17 Will try again in 30 seconds
    22:19:17 The cable may be unplugged from
    22:19:17 the computer to the interface, or
    22:19:17 the Idranet interface may not be
    22:19:17 powered. Error Reference (4)
    22:19:17 *********************************
    22:19:17 I> PCU comm port reset
    22:19:17 Failed to reset PCIF succesfully

    I've physically unplugged the PCU from the network, unplugged the usb cable and plugged it all back in and still nothing.

    Only when the network is stopped and restarted does everything start working again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Karam View Post
    I (and probably Chris) don't understand this statement. On the one hand you say the resistance is 0 ohms and then you say the meter reads Open Loop (O.L)? Did you just mistakenly think of O.L as meaning zero ohms rather than infinite ohms?
    I once had a multimeter several years ago that was extremely sensitive; being able to record any input on any range to four decimal places with an extremely fast sampling rate. It's figures changed so quickly that I would say it was on par with an oscilloscope without the benefit of having the trace to read. The instructions that came with it said that when OL was displayed, for all practical purposes this could be interpreted as being 0 ohms due to the sensitivity of the meter. However it also stated that much more sensitive meters are available and where this meter may show OL more sensitive meters may give a reading.
    The problem is, that meter died quite a while ago and as I 'inherited' it I couldn't afford or justify the expense of buying one that sensitive.
    My 20 cheapy as I call it does what I need it to do but as Chris suggests OL on this meter is probably Open Loop or as I put it no connection but not 0 ohms.
    I not sure, but I don't think it's possible to achieve 0 ohms as everything has a resistance it's just whether you can measure it. Anyway that's a totally different discussion for another day and doesn't help with my PIR problem !!!

    - Neil

  10. #10
    Automated Home Legend Karam's Avatar
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    I think the source of the problem is evident from your voltage measurements. The Active level is ok, but the Inactive level should be somewhere close to 0V. 1.2v is close to the threshold point of what is considered a logic 0 hence the module is hovering on the cusp and registering wild variations. Now the question is why is the voltage not being pulled down to 0V in the PIR Inactive state? Is it some peculiarity of the PIR's output circuit or could it be a fault on the module digital input? One way to check might be to connect this PIR to the digital input of a different module and measure the voltages on that. Or, if you can send me a node profile dump for the module you are presently using I may be able to send you some firmware which might distinguish if it is an input fault on that module.

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