Tracking down random boiler demand with Evohome

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  • Mavis
    Automated Home Ninja
    • Oct 2014
    • 322

    If I am awake in the morning I will make a point of checking the temp of the hall rad when I hear it whirr and watch its behaviour up to 6am.

    Comment

    • orange
      Automated Home Guru
      • Dec 2014
      • 149

      Originally posted by SensibleHeatUK View Post
      Many self-learning/self-tuning routines have limits/boundaries that disable the tuning to prevent "incorrect" learning patterns from distorting the true measured response. I wonder in this case if the setpoint temperature difference is too small or the rates of change too fast for them to be used to adapt the optimum start routine. It would be useful to know under what situations the self-learning operates and also what conditions cause the learning/tuning to be disabled/ignored.
      That would be very useful indeed.

      I would however suggest that if the default behaviour is 'turn on an hour early" and if you can't easily identify what these edge cases are then it's basically a 'broken' feature.

      Comment

      • orange
        Automated Home Guru
        • Dec 2014
        • 149

        Originally posted by G4RHL View Post
        I have never ever been blessed with that sort of behaviour! I wonder if it is reading what the outside temperature is meant to be and is allowing for that as opposed to the house itself and its warm up time. I do not have an outside sensor but the app clearly reads assumed outside temperatures from some weather site and often the temperature is different outside to that shown in various apps etc. Obviously the weather apps cannot be precise for the actual property.
        Plus the weather is kind of irrelevant - maybe it's a room with no outside windows. My understanding (from this forum) is that the weather is ignored as it basically has little input (in too much of a hurry to search but I think was a Ramases post)

        One further thing G4RHL, can you check your "min on time" in advanced settings. Mine is set to 5 minutes but like you I see boiler demand for less time than this. You have boiler demand for durations of less than one minute. It's possible that "min on time" refers to something totally separate but it's also possible it's not actually respecting this setting.

        Comment

        • top brake
          Automated Home Legend
          • Feb 2015
          • 837

          Originally posted by G4RHL View Post
          It says "Optimum Start ensures that you are warm when you want to be (and not before)". But that is not what is happening. I am using optimum start at present for the time I do want the heating on and mostly it comes on then, i.e. the set point is really one hour later than I want it knowing optimum start will come on early. I suppose I could disengage optimum start and keep optimum stop. I would have the same result provided I then put the set point back to where I want it. There is a degree of learning but not much and mostly it comes on nearly one hour before heat is requested. It seems there would be greater efficiency with no loss of comfort if I simply put the set point at 05:40 and switched optimum start off.
          the choice is yours to have no optimisation, optimum start or delayed start

          i have optimum start activated and it works as expected
          I work for Resideo, posts are personal and my own views.

          Comment

          • Wally©
            Automated Home Sr Member
            • Jan 2015
            • 53

            Originally posted by erik View Post
            I dunno if this room might be heating up a little TOO fast to get reliable results
            Let's not forget that the amount of time to heat a room depends mainly on these 4 factors...

            1. Room size
            2. Insulation
            3. Start T°
            4. T° of water running through the radiators

            Comment

            • orange
              Automated Home Guru
              • Dec 2014
              • 149

              Originally posted by top brake View Post
              the choice is yours to have no optimisation, optimum start or delayed start

              i have optimum start activated and it works as expected
              Of course, but that's really beside the point, although it's great its working fine for you.

              and if it doesn't work as advertised you can't "choose to have optimised start" can you ? You can choose to waste energy though.

              Comment

              • G4RHL
                Automated Home Legend
                • Jan 2015
                • 1580

                Originally posted by orange View Post

                One further thing G4RHL, can you check your "min on time" in advanced settings. Mine is set to 5 minutes but like you I see boiler demand for less time than this. You have boiler demand for durations of less than one minute. It's possible that "min on time" refers to something totally separate but it's also possible it's not actually respecting this setting.
                I can't check minimum on time as it is not shown in the Advanced settings menu. I know it appears when you first configure but do not know how to make it reappear again thereafter. However, I am sure it is set to 3 at present. I did have it set to 6 some time back but that also had no effect on how long the boiler is on. I could not see the purpose of this as it did not do anything. The boiler is often on for short periods, in fact have just heard it come on and go off again after being on about 2 minutes. I think this time it came on to heat up the hot water, there is nothing else that is calling for heat at present. Water temp is set to 60, it reads 54 at present but boiler has gone off. That is not a problem as I know that it gradually comes up to 60C.

                Comment

                • orange
                  Automated Home Guru
                  • Dec 2014
                  • 149

                  I think I should open a case with support - even though last time it was like wading through cold treacle (which isn't as nice as it sounds)

                  Basically
                  1. Your holding it wrong
                  2. Reboot
                  3. Dunno
                  4. New gateway
                  5. Another new gateway
                  6. Rebind
                  7. You should have used a registered installer as you must have installed it wrong - we can't support you.
                  8. Delete your TCC account
                  9. New controller
                  10. Reset controller and set EVERYTHING up again
                  11. Learn to live with it

                  Much later :

                  Whoops - we've found the problem and it's a bug that won't be fixed

                  Sigh - and I was told specifically that there was a note in the special "installer manual" about this problem - but now it turns out that the rather basic "you learn" is the installer manual and there is no mention of if there

                  (Rant over!)

                  Comment

                  • orange
                    Automated Home Guru
                    • Dec 2014
                    • 149

                    Originally posted by G4RHL View Post
                    I can't check minimum on time as it is not shown in the Advanced settings menu. I know it appears when you first configure but do not know how to make it reappear again thereafter. However, I am sure it is set to 3 at present. I did have it set to 6 some time back but that also had no effect on how long the boiler is on. I could not see the purpose of this as it did not do anything. The boiler is often on for short periods, in fact have just heard it come on and go off again after being on about 2 minutes. I think this time it came on to heat up the hot water, there is nothing else that is calling for heat at present. Water temp is set to 60, it reads 54 at present but boiler has gone off. That is not a problem as I know that it gradually comes up to 60C.
                    Press and hold the setting button until you get a yes / no prompt and it's the right hand option in the next set of menus (I think). - i also think the default is 3.

                    So it's probably ignoring it ?

                    Comment

                    • G4RHL
                      Automated Home Legend
                      • Jan 2015
                      • 1580

                      Originally posted by top brake View Post
                      the choice is yours to have no optimisation, optimum start or delayed start

                      i have optimum start activated and it works as expected

                      But it should work for all. If one goes into the advanced menu and optimisation and then look at the help menu it says "Heatup time is not constant. It depends on the system, the start and outside temperature. It could take minutes or hours to get to temp. Optimum Start: evotouch learns the heat time of a room and calculates the time from the actual temp. Delayed Start: Some people allow 1 hour for the room to heat up, delayed start will shorten the heatup time if the full hour is not needed"

                      Firstly note it says outside temperature is taken account of but where does it get that from if you do not have an outside sensor? Secondly it is saying it is making fine adjustments allowing time to heat up etc. But it does not seem to do either of these. I wonder if the off time is taken into account with optimum start for the bedroom is set to go off at 08:30. Perhaps with a short cycle I am not giving it a chance to optimise?

                      Comment

                      • SensibleHeatUK
                        Moderator
                        • Feb 2009
                        • 228

                        The feature is not broken if you never get the system inside the boundaries to allow the tuning to happen, it just means it is using the initial defaults (there has to be a starting point from which it then learns). So if we are told what these boundaries are then you can take action to ensure that time program settings/setpoints are adjusted for a period to ensure you get the system into the right state to allow it to learn.
                        Sensible Heat
                        SensibleHeat.co.uk

                        Comment

                        • G4RHL
                          Automated Home Legend
                          • Jan 2015
                          • 1580

                          Originally posted by orange View Post
                          I think I should open a case with support - even though last time it was like wading through cold treacle (which isn't as nice as it sounds)
                          Aye, I have been taken through all of this before from Support. They are not as helpful as those on this site. One comment once made to me, I will not identify the person but he was not a Honeywell man, was there is little point contacting Support "as they only have limited knowledge and suggestions - such as return the device for replacement. Some of us out in the field know far more about the system than the Support staff do." My own experience dealing with Support direct did not inspire me. However, Honeywell do have some very helpful people keen to resolve these problems even if Support can think of nothing other than restore.

                          I think though I ought to monitor this some more to have anything really meaningful to report in. There could be many things my end relating to my settings, the length of time for set points etc. before I can be sure its not me. At present for me Optimisation does not do what it said to do and I might as well switch it off but will refrain whilst I monitor what is happening and get more specific on times.

                          Comment

                          • top brake
                            Automated Home Legend
                            • Feb 2015
                            • 837

                            in defence of the support teams 95% of the questions they deal with are very straightforward and 'frequently asked'.

                            the consumer support is primarily there to answer product use related questions.
                            the installer* is there to apply the equipment appropriately and correctly to the heating system in line with manufacturers instructions.
                            the installer tech support line primarily helps installers with product installation related questions.

                            if there is a complex query or a question that they have not been given information on they will escalate the case to a specialist who will either advise or take the case over.

                            *therefore if there is no installer in the process there is the possibility that the controls have not been applied in the best way to suit the heating system.

                            hope this clarifies the support scope?
                            Last edited by top brake; 25 February 2015, 09:22 PM.
                            I work for Resideo, posts are personal and my own views.

                            Comment

                            • orange
                              Automated Home Guru
                              • Dec 2014
                              • 149

                              Originally posted by SensibleHeatUK View Post
                              The feature is not broken if you never get the system inside the boundaries to allow the tuning to happen, it just means it is using the initial defaults (there has to be a starting point from which it then learns). So if we are told what these boundaries are then you can take action to ensure that time program settings/setpoints are adjusted for a period to ensure you get the system into the right state to allow it to learn.
                              Totally reasonable response - but no mention of this in the documentation - all we've been told is that it takes a couple of weeks to learn the curve, then it's a continuous updating process.

                              I'm struggling to think of a sensible scenario where it couldn't learn ? Attempting to heat a room to 40 degrees ? Heating a room with an outside door open ?

                              It doesn't seem like these are weird, edge cases ? As has been stated, the system is capable of responding to very small temperature changes.

                              Comment

                              • orange
                                Automated Home Guru
                                • Dec 2014
                                • 149

                                Originally posted by top brake View Post
                                hope this clarifies the support scope?
                                It needed no clarification to me.

                                Comment

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