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Thread: Tracking down random boiler demand with Evohome

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by orange View Post
    hi Richard - thanks again for the kind offer - how do you know if the binding has gone wrong ? Any symptoms apart from general weirdness ?

    only one sensor/valve per zone and all working fine - reporting temps and controlling fine - radio strength ok - local override works as expected - no logged errors - optimum start working fine on all zones etc. Happy to rebind (and will) but not sure what we should be looking out for as a fault to guide us ?

    My suspicion is that it's calculated the heat loss curve for the room either incorrectly or strangely. Basically it's scared to let it drop down to the set point as it's not sure it can bring the temperature up quickly enough (essentially what Ramases is saying) - In this instance it would seem to me that the system should arrange a larger hysteresis loop for the temperate rather than quickly cycling the boiler every few minutes.....

    what I'm I think I'm saying is I think this is a 'feature' not a fault.

    decent logging would of course let us know
    In a radiator based system, chances are there isn't a double-bind of a device to the boiler relay - usually this happens when someone re-uses a hot water relay as a boiler relay (or vice versa) without clearing the binding. I'm assuming your system was recently installed? When Evo is first installed, all zones have a pretty standard heat curve, which is optimised over time as the device learns how each room of your house reacts.

    The standard parameters off a boiler would be 6 cycles per hour with a minimum on time of 1 minute (this is to prevent potential damage from trying to actuate a valve too often). Judging from your description, I'm guessing the boiler comes on for a minute every 10 minutes. Like Ramses mentioned, due to the heat loss curve, Evo has decided there is some, very small requirement for heat, so turns on the boiler for the minimum permissible on time of 1 minute.

    I'd say you're best giving the system time to learn how best to control your home. You'll most likely be saving money over-all by having a fully zoned heating system over a more basic heating system either way.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ally153 View Post
    In a radiator based system, chances are there isn't a double-bind of a device to the boiler relay - usually this happens when someone re-uses a hot water relay as a boiler relay (or vice versa) without clearing the binding. I'm assuming your system was recently installed? When Evo is first installed, all zones have a pretty standard heat curve, which is optimised over time as the device learns how each room of your house reacts.

    The standard parameters off a boiler would be 6 cycles per hour with a minimum on time of 1 minute (this is to prevent potential damage from trying to actuate a valve too often). Judging from your description, I'm guessing the boiler comes on for a minute every 10 minutes. Like Ramses mentioned, due to the heat loss curve, Evo has decided there is some, very small requirement for heat, so turns on the boiler for the minimum permissible on time of 1 minute.

    I'd say you're best giving the system time to learn how best to control your home. You'll most likely be saving money over-all by having a fully zoned heating system over a more basic heating system either way.
    the system has been in for a few months - it should have learned the heat gain/loss curves by now. My minimum on time is set to 5 minutes but apart from that your correct. My point is that quick cycling the boiler like that for short durations cannot (?) be efficient - therefore the controller logic needs some refinement ?

    FWIW the room temp and radiator temp didn't change more than .5 degree during the short cycling and never dropped as low as the set point.

  3. #13
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    I have had issues with Comms actuator faults - often in the quiet hours when there is no demand for heat for HW or CH. Occasionally, my sleep has been disturbed by the pump coming on followed by the boiler for about a minute. Looking at the Evohome log, the boiler cycles appear to occur when the BDRs are in a fault condition. I am not sure how this relates to your issues but all I can say is that when BDRs are operating as they should, my boiler doesn't short cycle. Wifi interference, perhaps, which is not bad enough to trigger a Comms fault in the log?

    My BDRs have just been moved well away from anything metallic or electrical.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by orange View Post
    hi Richard - thanks again for the kind offer - how do you know if the binding has gone wrong ? Any symptoms apart from general weirdness ?

    only one sensor/valve per zone and all working fine - reporting temps and controlling fine - radio strength ok - local override works as expected - no logged errors - optimum start working fine on all zones etc. Happy to rebind (and will) but not sure what we should be looking out for as a fault to guide us ?

    My suspicion is that it's calculated the heat loss curve for the room either incorrectly or strangely. Basically it's scared to let it drop down to the set point as it's not sure it can bring the temperature up quickly enough (essentially what Ramases is saying) - In this instance it would seem to me that the system should arrange a larger hysteresis loop for the temperate rather than quickly cycling the boiler every few minutes.....

    what I'm I think I'm saying is I think this is a 'feature' not a fault.

    decent logging would of course let us know
    From my experience one of the main 'things' I come across is when you are binding HR92's to the evohome controller.

    Sometimes the binding menu will 'jump' when the first HR92 is bound and instead of asking you if you would like to bind another HR92 to the same zone, it will say straight away on screen 'bind actuator to zone' and most people will then rebind the same HR92 they have already bound. I am not sure on the consequence of this happening, but I believe this can cause issues. This seems to happen when you click the 'bind signal received properly' green tick box too quickly after you bind the first HR92 (i.e. not giving enough time for the evohome controller and HR92 to sync properly).

    I personally know 100% how the binding procedure should unfold correctly and I know how to clear the binding on all evohome items 100% correctly before rebinding. Most people 'think' they know how to bind/unbind evohome, but they don't because they have never bound more than one evohome system and they are assuming things are bound correctly, when potentially they have made the mistake and then blame the equipment for their lack of understanding.

    Installation errors are also too common a fault... How many times have I heard from a customer, 'Yes, of course everything is installed correctly' and as soon as I ask for photos, the excuses start or I get the photos off the customer and blatantly the HR92 is behind a curtain or the BDR91 Wireless Relay Box is in a metal clad room!

    End of the day, all of the installations I have performed personally have been error free installations and all the people I have talked through a bind procedure will normally turn around and say 'well it didn't do that last time I bound it'.

    I don't have to help technically (no other supplier of evohome does) but I genuinely love the product and I am here to help my evohome customers gain full benefit from the system should they choose to do the installation themselves. Last thing I want is a great system to be written off over forums unjustly.

    If you don't want my help no problem at all, but I am at the end of the phone should you change your mind.
    Last edited by The EVOHOME Shop; 10th February 2015 at 02:45 PM. Reason: bad spelling

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by The EVOHOME Shop View Post

    Installation errors are also too common a fault...

    I don't have to help technically (no other supplier of evohome does) but I genuinely love the product and I am here to help my evohome customers gain full benefit from the system should they choose to do the installation themselves. Last thing I want is a great system to be written off over forums unjustly.
    Richard - you are of course correct but not all installers have your knowledge or passion. Unless a component is faulty, self-installers have only themselves to blame if the installed system has issues. Those who choose to have a professional installation carried out under the Honeywell Installer scheme should not have to delve into installation instructions to find out what might be wrong. In my case, the team at Honeywell have offered excellent advice and given it freely; however, if Honeywell want this product to be a success then it needs its installer network to share your enthusiasm.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by The EVOHOME Shop View Post

    If you don't want my help no problem at all, but I am at the end of the phone should you change your mind.
    The reason I bought the system from you was the fantastic pre sales advice (and after sales service) and I think everybody on this forum appreciates the effort you have made to share your knowledge. All your posts have been very useful.

    I still stand by my assertion that honeywell are not able to successfully support evohome as it stands. Users shouldn't have to resort to 3rd party forums for advice and information.

    There are various strategies that manufactures can take when it comes to releasing their product....basically look at what Philips have done with the Hue: created a great, free, well documented and open API and let others deal with what they do best - creating and supporting the apps.

    I still think that the evohome is potentially the best system out there - especially as I require individual zoning.....although my colleague sat beside me has just had his monthly usage report emailed to him automatically by his Nest. It's very informative....why aren't honeywell doing this ? It's basically free to do.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenGus View Post
    self-installers have only themselves to blame if the installed system has issues
    I don't agree with this - if the fault lies with honeywell why should the self installer blame themselves ?

  8. #18
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    I did caveat my remarks with 'unless a component is faulty'. In the context of faulty, I would add badly designed etc. My remarks were more to do with installation issues which should not, imho, occur when an approved installer is used.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by The EVOHOME Shop View Post
    From my experience one of the main 'things' I come across is when you are binding HR92's to the evohome controller.

    Sometimes the binding menu will 'jump' when the first HR92 is bound and instead of asking you if you would like to bind another HR92 to the same zone, it will say straight away on screen 'bind actuator to zone' and most people will then rebind the same HR92 they have already bound. I am not sure on the consequence of this happening, but I believe this can cause issues. This seems to happen when you click the 'bind signal received properly' green tick box too quickly after you bind the first HR92 (i.e. not giving enough time for the evohome controller and HR92 to sync properly).
    :
    This is the very issue I had at first before the penny dropped and I realised I need to wait a few moments each time I bind an HR92. Because you see "success" in the display or a message comes up saying it is done you naturally assume it is and do not realise a short pause is still needed. Perhaps that pause could be built into the software somewhere and of course a paragraph in the installation guide that you need to wait a few minutes whilst the controller and HR92 get acquainted. I am sure most of the problems are installer/consumer related and possibly a lot arise because the manual could be clearer. This is new and there are few installers with a full knowledge. Mine who installed the electrics and relays was a Honeywell recommended one but they had never installed both hot water and heating before, only heating. Binding was a matter left to me to do! The installation issue my installer had when things did not seem to work was a call to Honeywell, the answer was given within 15 seconds! I suspect us early adopters are the very people who play so these issues will arise. And I do not think that is a bad thing. Perhaps it is that Honeywell do not have much experience dealing with private customers like this but more to installing for businesses where the businessman leaves it to the installer to do and does not "play". Honeywell are therefore learning as we are!! It is different dealing with the man on the street.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenGus View Post
    I did caveat my remarks with 'unless a component is faulty'. In the context of faulty, I would add badly designed etc. My remarks were more to do with installation issues which should not, imho, occur when an approved installer is used.
    I agree they should not occur but I suspect that whilst many approved installers can do the wiring and if required install TRVs most probably do not have the knowledge about the sequence to fully bind it all and what to do. Elsewhere we have a topic dealing with things to put in the manual but the best advice I have seen is that from The Evohome Shop elsewhere in the forum telling you blow by blow, with no ambiguity, about what you do. Follow it and there ought not to be an issue. Of course this assumes the wiring is correct!

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