Split System Air Conditioning suggestions?

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  • marcuslee
    Automated Home Ninja
    • Dec 2009
    • 279

    Split System Air Conditioning suggestions?

    Hi All,

    Anyone ever done any investigations into split system air conditioners which would lend itself towards Idratek suitability?

    Thanks in advance,

    Marcus
  • toscal
    Moderator
    • Oct 2005
    • 2061

    #2
    Controlling air con units via home automation is a bit of a holy grail. the best solution I have found is to just use IR to send on ON or OFF command. (Don't know if Idratek can do this) But some air con manufacturers use obscure IR codes. Mitsubishi split aircons work but some of the cheaper ones seem to be a bit hit and miss. Some manufacturers also do an external add on so you can control their units via a home automation system.
    Not much help I know but maybe food for thought.
    IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT WITH A HAMMER, YOU'VE GOT AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM.
    Renovation Spain Blog

    Comment

    • marcuslee
      Automated Home Ninja
      • Dec 2009
      • 279

      #3
      Originally posted by toscal View Post
      Controlling air con units via home automation is a bit of a holy grail. the best solution I have found is to just use IR to send on ON or OFF command. (Don't know if Idratek can do this) But some air con manufacturers use obscure IR codes. Mitsubishi split aircons work but some of the cheaper ones seem to be a bit hit and miss. Some manufacturers also do an external add on so you can control their units via a home automation system.
      Not much help I know but maybe food for thought.
      Thanks for the reply. I'm hoping to avoid the IR route just for stability/reliability. I'll see what I/we come up with.

      Comment

      • Karam
        Automated Home Legend
        • Mar 2005
        • 863

        #4
        Sometime last year we did go through the process of decoding and then providing support for the IR protocol used by some Panasonic inverter units. Also seemed to work on their air con only units though there were some slight differences even between these which we had to cater for ... The IR frames contain information on all the present settings in one go, e.g on/off, mode, temperature setting etc. So these are quite long relative to TV type codes and must therefore be decoded on the fly in our modules otherwise they overrun the frame buffers.

        Comment

        • marcuslee
          Automated Home Ninja
          • Dec 2009
          • 279

          #5
          Originally posted by Karam View Post
          Sometime last year we did go through the process of decoding and then providing support for the IR protocol used by some Panasonic inverter units. Also seemed to work on their air con only units though there were some slight differences even between these which we had to cater for ... The IR frames contain information on all the present settings in one go, e.g on/off, mode, temperature setting etc. So these are quite long relative to TV type codes and must therefore be decoded on the fly in our modules otherwise they overrun the frame buffers.
          Thanks Karam for info (and indeed interesting to know also).

          Comment

          • marcuslee
            Automated Home Ninja
            • Dec 2009
            • 279

            #6
            Someone who's reverse engineered Daikin units (and sells a module he builds himself):


            And actually further to that, anyone tried out CoolMaster products, who purport to provide the magic to match AC units to HA systems?

            CoolMasterNet enables universal integration of Home Automation and Building Management System with any VRF/VRV HVAC system.
            Last edited by marcuslee; 26 March 2015, 03:32 PM.

            Comment

            • chris_j_hunter
              Automated Home Legend
              • Dec 2007
              • 1713

              #7
              FWIW - the circuit diagram for our ASHP units shows a spur for connection to a mobile telephone network ... no idea what's involved, the manual doesn't say much about it ... so might be worth checking the one for yours (?)

              to link ours into the HA, we intervened, adding module relays into its wiring, inserted flow-rate sensors, clipped-on temperature sensors ... can't quite do all we want, yet, but the rest is on our job-list ...

              this might include points of interest, too :

              Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 26 March 2015, 10:05 PM.
              Our self-build - going further with HA...

              Comment

              • marcuslee
                Automated Home Ninja
                • Dec 2009
                • 279

                #8
                Originally posted by chris_j_hunter View Post
                FWIW - the circuit diagram for our ASHP units shows a spur for connection to a mobile telephone network ... no idea what's involved, the manual doesn't say much about it ... so might be worth checking the one for yours (?)

                to link ours into the HA, we intervened, adding module relays into its wiring, inserted flow-rate sensors, clipped-on temperature sensors ... can't quite do all we want, yet, but the rest is on our job-list ...

                this might include points of interest, too :

                http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/EandE/W...g-finland.html
                Thanks for reply Chris... that concept of going direct into the wiring, was something that had crossed my mind when I started reviewing some of the install docs for this multi split AC system, but relegated to something that I hadn't the time (or probably will either!) to take up.

                Having said that, the AC company I'm considering using, has replied and said
                Daikin have their own smartphone controller that with additional Wi-Fi adaptors can individually control the units (approx. £100 per unit). Alternatively there are control boards which can link to other systems (more expensive than the Wi-Fi adaptor option), which one you require depends on how much control you would want, with remote on/off being the simplest and cheapest. Your controls specialist would have to determine what we can provide works with your existing system.


                I've replied to ask if he has some info on the control board option (I wonder if it's CoolMasterNet he's referring to).

                Also I've just realised there's a link to a write up on your installation. Not sure how I missed it, but am going to take a read when I get chance!

                Comment

                • marcuslee
                  Automated Home Ninja
                  • Dec 2009
                  • 279

                  #9
                  FYI this is what they replied with:
                  RTD, RTD-HO, RTD-10, RTD10, RTD-NET, RTD-W, RTD-RA, RTD-20 Daikin, Modbus, Air-conditioning, BMS, HVAC, BMS interface, gateway, RealTime Control Systems


                  Seems promising...

                  Comment

                  • marcuslee
                    Automated Home Ninja
                    • Dec 2009
                    • 279

                    #10
                    Hmm well having digested the literature, it appears the:
                    - RealTime product provides an interface from A/C unit to an RS-485 interface, over which you communicate with Modbus protocol
                    - and CoolMaster provides an interface from the A/C unit to RS-232 ASCII, RS-485 Modbus, Ethernet ASCII, Ethernet Modbus IP, but also very very limited General volt free input.

                    And from what I know other than the last item in above, there's limited direct support from Idratek out of the box??

                    But either way, not a simple integration it would seem (- the most you can get is ON or OFF for a unit based on volt free inputs). Which in hindsight makes sense, since there's such a big list of functions one would want to cover, such as:
                    - set point: 16-32 degrees
                    - fan speed: low, high, very high
                    - mode: Auto, heat, Fan, Cool, Dry
                    - On or Off
                    - and some other items too.

                    Comment

                    • chris_j_hunter
                      Automated Home Legend
                      • Dec 2007
                      • 1713

                      #11
                      yep, 'tis a shame Serial interfaces aren't easier to manage ...

                      we found, with many of our various machines (H&V units & controllers, garage-door operators, etc) there were terminal blocks under the covers that offered various options that could be brought into Cortex in various ways - via relays, digital inputs & outputs, 0-10V inputs & outputs ...
                      Last edited by chris_j_hunter; 7 April 2015, 05:21 PM.
                      Our self-build - going further with HA...

                      Comment

                      • Karam
                        Automated Home Legend
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 863

                        #12
                        Well I would imagine that the RS232 or Ethernet ASCII interfaces should be accessible via Cortex API. Probably Ethernet being easiest in the sense of not needing to connect to a serial port.

                        Comment

                        • marcuslee
                          Automated Home Ninja
                          • Dec 2009
                          • 279

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Karam View Post
                          Well I would imagine that the RS232 or Ethernet ASCII interfaces should be accessible via Cortex API. Probably Ethernet being easiest in the sense of not needing to connect to a serial port.
                          Thanks for reply Karam.

                          So investigating further, it seems to be panning out that:
                          - A/Cs based on outdoor unit linked to indoor distribution wall mounted units (like most people are aware of in domestic situations), basically is fairly rudimentary in so far as you buy a box that plugs into each individual wall mounted unit for the cost of ~£150. This unit plugs into a special 4 head connector on the wall unit. You set a unique address with DIP switches on the box, then you communicate with each of these boxes via 3 wire RS-485 running MODBUS protocol.
                          - RealTime controls caters to this

                          - then you go up a step to ones which talk about VRV units which effectively are hotel style/commercial style setups as most people would know them by. So outdoor unit more or less the same, but they start getting to really big sizes, and the indoor units are the concealed into ceiling ones, such that you only see the louvred vents. The difference here is that now all the units talk over 2 wire proprietary buses (in this case for instance Daikin call it DIII Net). So then you have more sophisticated boxes which then bridge between the two ~£2100, but control multiple units (ie we're talking up to 64 or something I think it was)
                          - CoolMasterNet supports this

                          And the reason for the RS-485 Modbus being so common is (sorry if this is common knowledge), is it seems that's the defacto standard for BMS systems.


                          Thanks for reply Karam on the Cortex API - I suspected/knew there would be a way, but knew it was going to be something off piste for my rudimentary use of Idratek.


                          Also FYI Video on this page is quite comical - not sure I get quite that level of thrill when using my HA?? :-D
                          Also though I missed it on my first watch of the video but at 2:01, there's a quick snippet of where they've housed their HA equipment - I'd never have picked putting it there myself:
                          Last edited by marcuslee; 8 April 2015, 10:08 AM.

                          Comment

                          • chris_j_hunter
                            Automated Home Legend
                            • Dec 2007
                            • 1713

                            #14
                            interesting video - their idea of HA, though, seems to go no further than linking things to a smart remote controller / tablet by which the user can interfere in simple ways, the systems being all very separate & stand-alone ...

                            wonder if going off-piste would be so bad - makes us nervous, too, but using the API might not be so difficult, albeit what language to use seems to be a difficult thing to get to the bottom of - needs to be simple, and current, MS Visual Studio Express / VisualBasic seems an obvious choice, ‘though a bit of digging shows there seem to be problems when it comes to RS232 ...

                            Chris







                            Our self-build - going further with HA...

                            Comment

                            • marcuslee
                              Automated Home Ninja
                              • Dec 2009
                              • 279

                              #15
                              Originally posted by chris_j_hunter View Post
                              interesting video - their idea of HA, though, seems to go no further than linking things to a smart remote controller / tablet by which the user can interfere in simple ways, the systems being all very separate & stand-alone ...

                              wonder if going off-piste would be so bad - makes us nervous, too, but using the API might not be so difficult, albeit what language to use seems to be a difficult thing to get to the bottom of - needs to be simple, and current, MS Visual Studio Express / VisualBasic seems an obvious choice, ‘though a bit of digging shows there seem to be problems when it comes to RS232 ...

                              Chris







                              http://www.innovatic.dk/knowledg/Ser.../SerialCOM.htm
                              Thanks for the links Chris. I suspect on my behalf, due to lack of time, this is only going to go as far as running the cabling in parallel with the a/c units, for a future date to tackle bringing this into Cortex.

                              But will see.

                              Comment

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