Can't bind HR92s

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  • Jon T
    Automated Home Lurker
    • Oct 2015
    • 7

    Can't bind HR92s

    Hello everyone (first post),

    I have attempted to bind several HR92s without (recent) success. I managed it before and read the manual several times so feel I know what I doing. I even called Honeywell who made a good job of reading the manual to me - so I learned nothing new there.
    The problem: During binding, either as a new zone or a fresh 'guided config' the evohome controller tells me binding is successful, however I do not get a success message on the HR92 itself. The Evohome relays and schedule is operating well but I have no control over the HR92's since they are not bound.
    I have gone through guided config 5 times now and beforehand always clear the memory of the relays and the HR92's by holding the 'Binding' button for 15 seconds or so.
    I think the Hot Water, Evohome Control and Relays are working but the HR92's are not.
    Background info: I have 3 heating circuits controlled by relays wired to motorised valves for upstairs, downstairs and hot water. There is only 1 downstairs zone using the Evohome control temp sensor. Upstairs I have 6 HR92's split into 4 zones. Hot water circuit is working well.
    - During the guided config, I have said I have no boiler relay. Anyone know if that is correct?
    - The upstairs zones are set to Application = Zone Valves / Sensor = Remote devices sensor
    - I know there is some comms between the HR92's and the control because it's successfully reading the temp. I think it also call on the boiler when a zone gets cold but the HR92's are not opening and closing with the schedule.
    More clues:
    - After installation (when the HR92's behaved) I was never able to turn the dial to start the boiler so I have little confidence there is 2 way comms.
    - The problem started when the upstairs circuit fired during the night even though there was no call for heat from any sensor (controller, HR92 or hot water).

    Any ideas?
  • top brake
    Automated Home Legend
    • Feb 2015
    • 837

    #2
    make sure the wireless devices are at least 1 metre apart when you are binding

    have you looked at the youlearn training? it has some video embedded
    I work for Resideo, posts are personal and my own views.

    Comment

    • MrB
      Automated Home Sr Member
      • Oct 2015
      • 80

      #3
      [QUOTE=top brake;23623]make sure the wireless devices are at least 1 metre apart when you are binding


      Just for ref here. I am just in the process of having a complete new (large) heating/hot water system installed and Evohome is managing 2xHeating and 1xHotWater zones and 12 rads in multiple Evo zones.

      I bound the 12 x HR92's to the EvoHome Controller (new WiFi model) with everything within 30 cms from me. All binding was instant - not even a 'tad' delay. I didn't use the Guided - was quicker and easier to auto create 12 evo Zones then go and edit and bind them.

      Definately want direct access to the Evohome controller though to get all the data out - hope the "new" API stuff comes soon.... IFTTT and Mobile app is ok for controlling, but there is nothing for analysis and linking to other home energy systems using own software.

      Comment

      • Jon T
        Automated Home Lurker
        • Oct 2015
        • 7

        #4
        Hello Top Brake, many thanks for your reply. I had registered for the youlearn course but haven't found time to start them yet. Admittedly I hadn't rushed to start because reading the course scehdule it looked like another way of absorbing the manuals (if you didn't know them already). I will try to get around to that though.
        Other news: I heard from Honeywell today. They said the Evohome system was never designed to operate more than 2 circuits (hot water + heating). Not very high tech if you ask me. None the less, I have 'tricked' the system to operate 3 circuits by binding with HR92's then changing the application from Radiator Valve to Zone Valve. Sadly this only works for 3 zones on 1 upstairs circuit instead of my desired 4.
        The installer has also been in contact with Honeywell and they plan to use a Evohome Thermostat instead of using the controller as temp sensor for the downstairs zone.
        In the long run, I fear neither my trick or what the installer is proposing will be a satisfactory solution. Once the thermostat is installed I will provide an update if anyone is interested.

        Comment

        • Fen Tiger
          Automated Home Lurker
          • Oct 2015
          • 6

          #5
          Hi Jon
          Firstly, i speak with no degree of authority or experience of the Evohome system (being only just ahead of you in the whole process) but i thought i might be able to help recalling my experience.

          My original intention was to use my Evohome system to control my existing S plan system (two motorised valves - Heating and Water) and then introduce Zones one at a time as i could afford the HR92's. However my attempt to create the first zone with an HR92 was causing binding issues not dissimilar to what you seem to be experiencing. Having spoken with Richard (The Evohome Shop) it transpired I was getting confused between the two basic modes of the Evohome system, i.e either controlling a simple 2 motorised valve system (which you dont have of course) or a fully zoned system where the 'heating' BDR91 is used to directly fire the boiler. Once i realised this, I reconfigured the system, removing the heating motorised valve (disconnecting it and then manually locking it open). I re- ran the guided configuration.... Control Boiler? Yes, Control stored HWC? Yes, I then created each zone as needed, setting the heating type as Radiator Valve. This worked well and i now have 8 zones running.

          System Summary
          Boiler control - Wireless Relay Box
          Stored Hot Water - Hot Water only valve
          Bathroom - Radiator Valve
          Lounge - Radiator Valve
          Hall - Radiator Valve
          etc.

          It took me a while to understand that, yes, without the motorised valve in use, the hot water will always try to flow round the house when the pump is running but if none of the radiators is calling for heat, there is no issue.

          Unless i misunderstand your set up, you have an upstairs heating zone controlled by a BDR91 (opening and closing the motorised valve) and within that circuit you have sub zones being controlled by HR92's. I think this is possibly confusing the Evohome controller in the same way my original set up was.

          As you have the ability to independantly control each radiator in your house surely there is no need to preserve the distinction between heating either upstairs and/or downstairs as you do now.

          As to random boiler firing when there's no heat demand? I get that too as do others having read their posts.

          Hope this helps!

          Comment

          • Jon T
            Automated Home Lurker
            • Oct 2015
            • 7

            #6
            Hello Mr. B, when you say "2x Heating" is that 1x upstairs circuit & 1x downstairs circuit?

            Comment

            • Jon T
              Automated Home Lurker
              • Oct 2015
              • 7

              #7
              Hello Fen Tiger, thank you for your reply. I'm glad to see you understand my system and what I'm trying to accomplish. Honeywell also suggested tying the upstairs and downstairs circuits together but I see this as a massive backward step in heating efficiency. This house has at least 35 radiators and rads aside, I don't like the idea of heating ceiling voids and towel rails just because I want to keep the living room warm.

              Comment

              • paulockenden
                Automated Home Legend
                • Apr 2015
                • 1719

                #8
                Surely if all of the HR92s are shut in one of your zones there will be no water flow into that zone? So whether the main valve is open or closed won't make any difference.

                P.

                Comment

                • MrB
                  Automated Home Sr Member
                  • Oct 2015
                  • 80

                  #9
                  JonT - correct. there are 2 CH (rads) zones.

                  But - the Evohome, out of the box, is not good at this at all. It's "mindset" is in the old simple way of doing things with just a single CH zone and a single HW zone using either a 3-way valve or 2x2-way valves. The world has moved on and having the granular options of indvidual rads controlling themselves (HR92s), but still managing the overall system heat production/loss is where it needs to be.

                  Re the idea of just leaving 2-way zone valves locked open misses the point for large properties. For small ones, I agree, it makes no difference just pumping around everything all the time - the heat loss in that circumstance is minimal.

                  The reason we split the single CH loop into 2 was that the rads at the end of the single loop received water temperature way below the first - simply because of the size and shape of the house and the very long pipe runs.
                  Even with 2 CH zones the pipe loop runs are still long.

                  So the most efficient way to manage this is to break it up with 2-way valves and unique shorter pipe runs. This way the hot water from the boiler is ONLY routed to the pipework that needs it. It is not simply pumped around the unecessary pipework loosing heat enroute - that is very inefficient.

                  Where the Evohome Controller - which has all the required data - is lagging (yep - a pun) behind is that it won't let multiple HR92s be in 1 EvoZone and ANY of them call for heat - that way if there's only 1 rad in the whole house that still wants some hot water it is delivered to that rad, in just 1 CH zone, and thereby in the shortest and most efficient way.

                  The Honeywell chaps have hinted at "stuff coming" and I hope this area will be addressed - or at least exposes all the data so that we can manage it ourselves. I'll wait a bit longer to see what is forthcoming and until then a more simplistic layout is the only choice.
                  Last edited by MrB; 21 October 2015, 02:43 PM.

                  Comment

                  • MrB
                    Automated Home Sr Member
                    • Oct 2015
                    • 80

                    #10
                    Paul : normal is 2 pipe with the rads on a bypass loop attached in parallel to the flow & return pipes - so the hot water would still flow all the way around irrespective of individual rads being closed.

                    Comment

                    • paulockenden
                      Automated Home Legend
                      • Apr 2015
                      • 1719

                      #11
                      Surely normal practice is something like this:

                      12863787.jpg

                      So if all of the rad valves are closed there's no flow on that circuit.

                      Why would you have a bypass loop on a radiator circuit? The bypass should be the other side of the motorised valves?

                      Or am I being daft?

                      P.

                      Comment

                      • MrB
                        Automated Home Sr Member
                        • Oct 2015
                        • 80

                        #12

                        Shows 2 layouts. The 2 pipe ends in a 'dead-end' as you stated.
                        The 1 pipe keeps going...

                        The two pipe system is the most commonly used hydronic central heating system configuration. These systems are fully pumped so enabling a quicker heat response and better balanced radiators.


                        Not you being daft - you were correct in what you said then - me being upside-down... -- has just made me think about a problem the blokes doing our new heating system atm are working on.... hmmm...

                        Comment

                        • paulockenden
                          Automated Home Legend
                          • Apr 2015
                          • 1719

                          #13
                          As the link says, I think you'd only have the one-pipe configuration on a gravity fed system.

                          I think the confusion probably comes from referring to the circuit as a 'loop'. It isn't really.

                          P.

                          Comment

                          • MrB
                            Automated Home Sr Member
                            • Oct 2015
                            • 80

                            #14
                            Paul,
                            Yep - a section of the old system being replaced was a single pipe - good job it's going..

                            And now everything is clearly understood about the Evohome setup etc.... Confusion does come from relating to old systems and what a full Evohome system can really do. Your thinking gets coloured by "what is" when it should be that you simply ignore what exists.

                            So the solution (now) is :
                            + HW - wireless from HW Tank sensor to Controller, which in turn manages a BDR91 that operates the HW 2-way valve.
                            + All 2-way valves are wired to the new Boiler to give a Heat Request signal.
                            + Boiler manages Ciruclation Pump On/Off/Overrun.
                            + 2 CH pipe "runs" because our pipe distances are too long and a single run looses heat at the distant radiators. These 2 are Upstairs and Downstairs {you can have as many as you want actually}
                            + Every radiator has a HR92 TRV linked to the Evohome Controller - very important point.
                            + Each CH pipe run has it's own 2-Way Valve, which I now understand were installed by 'habit' and only 1 is really necessary because unless a single HR92 on the individual pipe run is open there is no hot water flowing through that CH pipe run. As the two 2-way valves have already been installed they will simply be wired in parallel to the same Heating BDR91 Relay, which is managed by the Evohome Controller. This is being done because of the way the new pipework and valves have been installed and remember the Boiler is being fired from the Zone Valves being open. So both CH 2-way valves will be opened simultaneously, but no water will flow beyond the 2-way valve unless at least 1 of the HR92 TRVs on that run is open. So that's efficient.

                            So, as the extra CH 2-way valve is already installed it will remain just in case it's useful in the future. Of course, hindsight, and what I wrote above about ignore existing, means in reality it's totally redundant.

                            The only point still to be answered is whether it's best to have the 2-way valves fire the boiler or the EvoHome Controller because of short cycling as I've seen mentioned. If Plan A creates a problem then I'll change it over to Plan B and have the Evohome fire the boiler instead.

                            Comment

                            • Jon T
                              Automated Home Lurker
                              • Oct 2015
                              • 7

                              #15
                              Thanks MrB ! It's nice to know you guys appreciate my frustration - Fingers crossed the Honeywell developers are listening.
                              2 outstanding thoughts on my side.
                              1. If I managed to get the system working successfully for 3 upstair zones (while also running hot water and downstairs). Why won't it work for 4, 5 or more? Was I simply lucky in stumbling across a loophole or is there a piece of firmware code that says, "if quantity of zone valves is greater than 3 flip-out and annoy Jon T". What is the barrier? Limited wi-fi channels or? I'm guessing development to cover my problem would not require a great deal.
                              2. Does anyone think the addition of the Evohome Thermostat for the downstairs circuit will work?
                              I'm happy to make small compromises but anymore and the installer will be ripping out the Evohome and re-instating my old "Boost, Boost, Boost" button system.
                              Last edited by Jon T; 21 October 2015, 08:42 PM.

                              Comment

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