Second Thoughts!

[paulockenden]

Our current new penthouse apartment was chosen as a latter stage residence in order to facilitate independent living as we mature. We believe we are healthy and young for our years but are aware that mobility and other issues can impact with the passage of time.

^^^^^^^^ This is what I was referring to when I mentioned an "oldie" household. It's an issue which you'd brought up yourself. And I meant the term affectionately. A previous commenter had mentioned "pensioner" which I deliberately avoided.

But again, I apologise that I caused offence. It honestly wasn't meant.

P.

[jonboy]

^^^^^^^^ This is what I was referring to when I mentioned an "oldie" household. It's an issue which you'd brought up yourself. And I meant the term affectionately. A previous commenter had mentioned "pensioner" which I deliberately avoided.

But again, I apologise that I caused offence. It honestly wasn't meant.

P.

Paul. Thanks for your reply, other than my sensibilities, there was no real harm done.

[electronicsuk]

It's not a difficult system to use once set up, and I'm sure your wife would soon pick it up with a little instruction. I can appreciate your concern should the system fail while you're not at home to fix it, but the boiler itself is probably a weaker link than the evohome system, and you don't seem too worried about that.

Even if the system were to fail and you couldn't find a local trained technician, any electrician or plumber should easily be able to replace the evohome boiler relay with a standard room stat. All you'd need to do then would be to remove the HR92 actuator heads and turn the valves manually to allow flow to individual radiators.

If you were so inclined, I suppose you could even fit a standard thermostat/programmer in parallel with the boiler relay contacts, and leave it set to off/frost to be switched on should there ever be a problem with the evohome system.

[Jom]

It's not a difficult system to use once set up, and I'm sure your wife would soon pick it up with a little instruction. I can appreciate your concern should the system fail while you're not at home to fix it, but the boiler itself is probably a weaker link than the evohome system, and you don't seem too worried about that.

Even if the system were to fail and you couldn't find a local trained technician, any electrician or plumber should easily be able to replace the evohome boiler relay with a standard room stat. All you'd need to do then would be to remove the HR92 actuator heads and turn the valves manually to allow flow to individual radiators.

If you were so inclined, I suppose you could even fit a standard thermostat/programmer in parallel with the boiler relay contacts, and leave it set to off/frost to be switched on should there ever be a problem with the evohome system.

I agree that the snartphone/tablet apps make Evohome very easy to use. Also some very practical suggestions such as having a back up traditional control in parallel to use in the event of problems with the Evohome system.

[mikey8156]

Thermostat

You could buy a radiator thermostat which does time and temperature such as

Honeywell HR25 Energy Radiator Thermostat Programmable .

[jonboy]

It's not a difficult system to use once set up, and I'm sure your wife would soon pick it up with a little instruction. I can appreciate your concern should the system fail while you're not at home to fix it, but the boiler itself is probably a weaker link than the evohome system, and you don't seem too worried about that.

Even if the system were to fail and you couldn't find a local trained technician, any electrician or plumber should easily be able to replace the evohome boiler relay with a standard room stat. All you'd need to do then would be to remove the HR92 actuator heads and turn the valves manually to allow flow to individual radiators.

If you were so inclined, I suppose you could even fit a standard thermostat/programmer in parallel with the boiler relay contacts, and leave it set to off/frost to be switched on should there ever be a problem with the evohome system.

When a conventional system fails, including the boiler, it is not such a problem when your partner can simply contact a range of engineers who can fix it.

[jonboy]

After much deliberation we finally opted for a set up that may not be approved by the purists. Although it does not provide the degree of control of the Evohome system, it seems to suit our requirements.

We have opted for the Hive controller for a number of reasons:

It is widely promoted and supported by British Gas, so just a quick phone call for B.G. engineer. They also appear to have a good technical help line.

Professional installation is only £70

It provides eye level access with a clear and easy to use digital display, which would assist with refining the schedules.

Smart phone and tablet programming is available from any location, ie internal or external. Useful when away from home or on holiday. It can also default to manual operation if there is a WiFi glitch.

It has a frost protection setting for when the home is empty eg winter holidays.

British Gas are currently linking other automated controls like lighting etc to create an Internet of things, and there is mention of a zoning system to come.

We have purchased 2 glass thermostatic wall mounted electric panel radiators. One Kw radiator for the bedroom which will kick in should the temperature in the winter fall below the pr-set, and without switching on the full gas central heating system. The second glass electric panel is a 2 Kw one for the lounge. It is unobtrusive and is intended for back up as would the bedroom one, should there be gas c.h. failure. We had just such an experience over last Xmas and New Year, and had to wait for about a week with no heating until an engineer was available. Hence the belt and braces approach.

As one of our 2 showers is electric and there is electric underfloor heating in both shower rooms as well as c. heating radiators, plus electric cooking facilities, we feel that most bases should be covered if we were ever to have a repeat problem.

Obviously not such an elegant and zone controlled system, but at a total cost of £370 it seems to be a good solution for us.

Thanks for all comments and assistance.

[Rameses]

After much deliberation we finally opted for a set up that may not be approved by the purists. Although it does not provide the degree of control of the Evohome system, it seems to suit our requirements.

We have opted for the Hive controller for a number of reasons:

It is widely promoted and supported by British Gas, so just a quick phone call for B.G. engineer. They also appear to have a good technical help line.

Professional installation is only £70

It provides eye level access with a clear and easy to use digital display, which would assist with refining the schedules.

Smart phone and tablet programming is available from any location, ie internal or external. Useful when away from home or on holiday. It can also default to manual operation if there is a WiFi glitch.

It has a frost protection setting for when the home is empty eg winter holidays.

British Gas are currently linking other automated controls like lighting etc to create an Internet of things, and there is mention of a zoning system to come.

We have purchased 2 glass thermostatic wall mounted electric panel radiators. One Kw radiator for the bedroom which will kick in should the temperature in the winter fall below the pr-set, and without switching on the full gas central heating system. The second glass electric panel is a 2 Kw one for the lounge. It is unobtrusive and is intended for back up as would the bedroom one, should there be gas c.h. failure. We had just such an experience over last Xmas and New Year, and had to wait for about a week with no heating until an engineer was available. Hence the belt and braces approach.

As one of our 2 showers is electric and there is electric underfloor heating in both shower rooms as well as c. heating radiators, plus electric cooking facilities, we feel that most bases should be covered if we were ever to have a repeat problem.

Obviously not such an elegant and zone controlled system, but at a total cost of £370 it seems to be a good solution for us.

Thanks for all comments and assistance.

Hi just a correction or further clarity on your statement -
evohome (and our other stats) do have frost protection. We don't talk about it much as we thought it wasn't much of a unique selling point. But its there.
evohome does provide phone/table programming from any location
evohome is certified for use with IFTTT and (soon) Samsung Smarthings, providing further automated home opps.

Not sure what your notes with regards to electric radiators was trying to say. But happy to provide clarity if needed. You could buy evohome (without any zoning) and have many if not all of the above.

I am naturally bias. Either way whatever you do - better control from anyone will make you savings. So good luck.

[jonboy]

Hi just a correction or further clarity on your statement -
evohome (and our other stats) do have frost protection. We don't talk about it much as we thought it wasn't much of a unique selling point. But its there.
evohome does provide phone/table programming from any location
evohome is certified for use with IFTTT and (soon) Samsung Smarthings, providing further automated home opps.

Not sure what your notes with regards to electric radiators was trying to say. But happy to provide clarity if needed. You could buy evohome (without any zoning) and have many if not all of the above.

I am naturally bias. Either way whatever you do - better control from anyone will make you savings. So good luck.

Rameses

Thanks for your reply.

You appear not to have grasped the crux of what I was saying. Basically it is the unavailability of experienced Honeywell Evohome engineers in this region if something should go wrong. The Hive system although obviously not as comprehensive as Evohome is backed and supported by British Gas. I feel that I could deal with Evohome technical issues, but my wife could not. I am thinking longer term!

With regard to the electric heater this was simply a less elegant means of boosting bedroom heating during the night without resorting to a complex system to enable us to achieve the same thing.

I regret I will no longer be proceeding with Evohome, but I feel I have arrived at a more pragmatic and simpler approach to solving a heating issue.

[Cchris]

I can see the logic, I too worry that my wife would not grasp all the technical stuff in the house if I were not around - CCTV, Evohome, media server, etc etc.. Ive tried giving "lessons", but its just not her thing. She says if I croaked, she would just have the lot ripped out and go back to basics! Ive told her Ill haunt her if she bins the IT equipment.


In terms of heating, I see no reason why a traditional system can not be left wired in parallel to an evohome system. Timer switch in place but not switched on, thermostat set to zero. So in the event of a contoller failure or some other failure on the evohomes side, you switch off the evohome controller, switch on the bog standard 7 day timer and turn up the thermostat in the hallway (or wherever it is), and turn up the radiator valves manually.

I still have the old thermostat cut out still connected to the hot water tank in case of a comms failure from Honeywell Evohome, but thinking it through, I dont see why the traditional system could not be left wired in but just dormant until needed in emergency.

As long as there is an open circuit somewhere like a towel rail, then if the manually set HR92's get the room to temperature and the old manual thermostat and timer are still calling for heat, there is a route for it to flow I dont see an issue, but Im not a heating engineer - just a DIYer with way too much time to think these things through.

I fail to see how the frost stat in Hive (or any single thermostat device) can be all that good, especially in larger homes. If the thermostat is in the hall or centre of the home, and if the heating is switched off and you go away during winter, the house will cool from the outside in. By the time the thermostat registers 5 degrees in the hall, that back bedroom with the radiator turned off because nobody uses it may have frozen already.

[jonboy]

I can see the logic, I too worry that my wife would not grasp all the technical stuff in the house if I were not around - CCTV, Evohome, media server, etc etc.. Ive tried giving "lessons", but its just not her thing. She says if I croaked, she would just have the lot ripped out and go back to basics! Ive told her Ill haunt her if she bins the IT equipment.


In terms of heating, I see no reason why a traditional system can not be left wired in parallel to an evohome system. Timer switch in place but not switched on, thermostat set to zero. So in the event of a contoller failure or some other failure on the evohomes side, you switch off the evohome controller, switch on the bog standard 7 day timer and turn up the thermostat in the hallway (or wherever it is), and turn up the radiator valves manually.

I still have the old thermostat cut out still connected to the hot water tank in case of a comms failure from Honeywell Evohome, but thinking it through, I dont see why the traditional system could not be left wired in but just dormant until needed in emergency.

As long as there is an open circuit somewhere like a towel rail, then if the manually set HR92's get the room to temperature and the old manual thermostat and timer are still calling for heat, there is a route for it to flow I dont see an issue, but Im not a heating engineer - just a DIYer with way too much time to think these things through.

I fail to see how the frost stat in Hive (or any single thermostat device) can be all that good, especially in larger homes. If the thermostat is in the hall or centre of the home, and if the heating is switched off and you go away during winter, the house will cool from the outside in. By the time the thermostat registers 5 degrees in the hall, that back bedroom with the radiator turned off because nobody uses it may have frozen already.

Cchris, thanks for your reply.

You have obviously considered the same potential problems that I have.

Having such a back up system suggests a lack of confidence in the practicality of the Evohome system for those who are not technically or generally DIY capable. Although I would have loved to have installed and had the degree of control of the Evohome system, when it came down to it I preferred having the security of British Gas and their engineers at the end of the phone, for the reasons given.

We tend to heat most rooms in our home and move about them throughout the day. I now feel that I can have a degree of control and reduce our bills by having the Hive system in conjunction with a few Pegler valve heads in the rooms we don't use so frequently. The electric wall heater with built in thermostat provides the boost we occasionally need for our bedroom during the night, over the winter months.

I don't anticipate any problems with burst pipes, but it is useful to have the frost function as a fail safe. We are waiting installation of the hive system so not fully au fait with it yet, but I believe the frost setting is adjustable.

[Cchris]

I wouldn't say it's a lack of confidence in the practicality of the system or abilities of the user, more an acceptance of the dogged stubbornness of a particular user in the house not to embrace technology.

[G4RHL]

What happens if I peg it first can be a concern but I still went for Evohome and use Lightwave to control lights and other electrical things. My wife is just not interested in anything technical and cannot see why the good old switch cannot be used. However, she rapidly learned to use an iPad and now loves it even though she gets stuck from time to time. She soon learned how to adjust the heating and does so on her iPad and iPhone. Where she will come unstuck is probably altering the scheduling or if binding fails with a relay or TRV. There are not many around where I am who would have the experience. But then do you need it? It is more the fear of things technical that is the problem, the reality is that it is straight forward provided you carefully follow the instructions. You do not need qualifications to bind your relays or TRVs, just a functioning brain. Sadly the manuals provided by Honeywell can be confusing but there is excellent guidance on these pages from which I have done a sheet of instructions if binding or simply battery changes are needed.

What else could go wrong that my wife may struggle with? A leak. She'd get a plumber. An electric problem, she'd get an electrician. Her problem would be more an initial reluctance to start messing with controls but simple instructions ought to overcome that.

Despite my wife's non techno approach to everything, she likes the control we now have over the heating and uses it to good effect, she likes being able to switch lights on without getting up or letting them come on automatically. Plus my experience of dealing with widows (and widowers) over the years is that most, when faced with things to do they have never done before, get on with it and learn.

So "what happens if I die?" is perhaps not such as big a problem as we think it is.

[Mavis]

I wouldn't say it's a lack of confidence in the practicality of the system or abilities of the user, more an acceptance of the dogged stubbornness of a particular user in the house not to embrace technology.

What happens if I peg it first can be a concern but I still went for Evohome and use Lightwave to control lights and other electrical things. My wife is just not interested in anything technical and cannot see why the good old switch cannot be used. However, she rapidly learned to use an iPad and now loves it even though she gets stuck from time to time. She soon learned how to adjust the heating and does so on her iPad and iPhone. Where she will come unstuck is probably altering the scheduling or if binding fails with a relay or TRV. There are not many around where I am who would have the experience. But then do you need it? It is more the fear of things technical that is the problem, the reality is that it is straight forward provided you carefully follow the instructions. You do not need qualifications to bind your relays or TRVs, just a functioning brain. Sadly the manuals provided by Honeywell can be confusing but there is excellent guidance on these pages from which I have done a sheet of instructions if binding or simply battery changes are needed.

What else could go wrong that my wife may struggle with? A leak. She'd get a plumber. An electric problem, she'd get an electrician. Her problem would be more an initial reluctance to start messing with controls but simple instructions ought to overcome that.

Despite my wife's non techno approach to everything, she likes the control we now have over the heating and uses it to good effect, she likes being able to switch lights on without getting up or letting them come on automatically. Plus my experience of dealing with widows (and widowers) over the years is that most, when faced with things to do they have never done before, get on with it and learn.

So "what happens if I die?" is perhaps not such as big a problem as we think it is.

Agree with both of these posts. We have role reversal in our house - I am the technical one and hubby is the technophobe. If I wasn't around and my Evo went down, hubby would ring the Heating Engineer that installed it. (My Evo was the first one the Heating Engineer installed - he is coming to service the boiler today and I have asked hubby to find out if he has installed many more). I suspect with my LightwaveRF lighting, he would get our friendly electrician in (who loves tech) and get him to disable all the timers so that he only operated the light switches manually.

As G4RHL has discussed, my mum died 3 years ago and my dad, who's culinary skills barely extended to heating up a Greggs Pasty under the grill, now creates the most marvellous meals, including fish pie, stew and dumplings, apple pie, white sauce, etc totally from scratch when I go round for my weekly tea.

In terms of 'lessons' for my hubby, I have found just one thing at a time is better than trying to demonstrate the whole system - so initially I just showed him how to manually change the temp on the HR92 rather than the controller if he was cold.

I think though I do really need to write up some crib sheets just in case.

[jonboy]

It depends what you mean by embrace technology. It is not a problem learning the operational aspects of any system. It is a question of what to do when there is a technical fault. Thousands of people happily drive their cars, but absolutely do not wish to open the bonnet. They leave that to the technical expertise of others. "I know a man who can"...so to speak. The essential problem is what can this type of person do if there are no experts in their area?

I agree that my wife has a mental block when it comes to tinkering with the technical side of things, but she has never felt the desire or need to. She is reasonably happy to operate gadgets, but has absolutely no inclination to 'look under the bonnet' and never will. I therefore felt it necessary to resort to the KISS principle for our c.h system.

As technology advances often more can mean less. As a c.h. example, we previously installed a new Worcester Bosch boiler with all the associated digital controls. Fortunately we had a service contract because the gas engineer was constantly on call due to various problems. Various circuit boards were replaced. By way of contrast my sister in law had an ancient mechanically operated boiler which she was repeatedly told was obsolete and there were no spare parts, by British Gas. It never broke down once in 20 years! She has just had it replaced simply because she was replacing radiators etc in her system.

Anyway, we are where we are now, and the HIVE system plus our electric panel heater etc will be installed next week. At least my wife feels confident that should something go wrong, in my absence, the HIVE system is promoted, supported, and if necessary repaired by British Gas. Perhaps not so money saving due to lesser control, but shorter pay back.