Evohome range issues

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  • Cchris
    Automated Home Sr Member
    • Nov 2015
    • 95

    Evohome range issues

    Hi, I came across this forum when doing some research into possible solutions for an issue I have with the Evohome system.

    I know it's a bit of a first world problem, but it appears the construction and size of my home is a bit of an issue when it comes to the Evohome being able to maintain decent communications to all the radiators in the property.

    At present I have 29 radiators and 2 underfloor heating zones controlled by the system, hot water and two boilers.

    It's currently been split using two control panels, one for upstairs one for downstairs, set into a total of 20 zones.

    It's been a bit of trial and error in positioning the base stations, and I've managed to get them in positions where they maintain contact with most of the actuators (although in order to do this the base stations have ended up in less than ideal locations).

    However they do still occasionally lose contact with some of the zones/actuators for hours at a time. Almost all the walls in our house are solid, and due to the way it has been extended, a few internal walls are actually double skin cavity walls.

    I'm surprised to find that honeywell don't make some form of plug in repeater to resolve this problem.

    I've also found that the orientation of the base station also seems to affect the reception of signal from the HR92's. If it is at 90 degrees to the HR92, then it appears the reception is not as good. I tested this by doing the rf check for a zone I kept losing, it was showing 2 poor and occasionally 1 poor and 1 not received. As I rotated the base station so the back was pointing squarely in the direction of the HR92's this changed to "2 good".

    I have tried changing to lithium batteries as I hoped the settings in the HR92 would then take advantage of the extra mAh of the batteries and boost the signal to the base station.

    I don't think this is an issue with the base station as the valves report a signal which although occasionally poor at 1, usually ranges between 2-4. However the base station reports only poor or occasionally not received. So I think this is an issue with the strength of signal coming from the valves.

    I've even tried bodging some tin foil deflectors to try and concentrate the signal from a valve in the direction of the base station.

    I'm now starting to struggle for ideas on how to get this to work.

    As I see honeywell are active on here I'm hoping there may be a solution or even the possibility of being Guinea pig to any possible booster solution being worked on.

    Many thanks, Chris.
  • electronicsuk
    Automated Home Sr Member
    • Sep 2015
    • 55

    #2
    You could buy a 'dumb' 868Mhz repeater and see if that gives you any joy. I'm not hopeful, but at less than $25 it has to be worth a pop:

    Comment

    • Cchris
      Automated Home Sr Member
      • Nov 2015
      • 95

      #3
      Possibly worth a try, but I'd guess that without being coded to the specifics of the honeywell system it just won't work.

      Interestingly enough, the downstairs controller usually sees a few errors every day from one zone, but after switching to lithium batteries and turning the controller to have the back face directly toward that zone, not a single error in almost 24 hours so far.

      I'm interested to know what exactly gets changed when setting the HR92 battery type to lithium. I dearly hope it is to up the signal strength as these batteries have a higher current capability.

      Comment

      • electronicsuk
        Automated Home Sr Member
        • Sep 2015
        • 55

        #4
        Originally posted by Cchris View Post
        Possibly worth a try, but I'd guess that without being coded to the specifics of the honeywell system it just won't work.

        Interestingly enough, the downstairs controller usually sees a few errors every day from one zone, but after switching to lithium batteries and turning the controller to have the back face directly toward that zone, not a single error in almost 24 hours so far.

        I'm interested to know what exactly gets changed when setting the HR92 battery type to lithium. I dearly hope it is to up the signal strength as these batteries have a higher current capability.
        Hopefully someone from Honeywell will reply, but I very much doubt it's signal strength. More likely it will be to do with the discharge curve of the battery, allowing the HR92 to make a good attempt at tracking the battery charge level. It doesn't surprise me that moving the controller even a small amount can have such a large effect. You only have to look at the fact that almost all phones and laptops have at least two wifi antennas (or more now that we have MIMO and beam forming), spaced only a small distance apart to help mitigate the effects of multipath.

        As for the repeater, you're probably right, but it depends how dumb it really is. If it simply repeats all RF in a small window around 868Mhz, it'll probably work. Unfortunately, it does mean any undesired RF would be amplified also, so won't help if your problem is interference rather than lack of transmit power.

        Comment

        • Rameses
          Industry Expert
          • Nov 2014
          • 446

          #5
          Sounds dumb - but have you taken batteries out and back in for the problem zone? I know this seems simple, but this resets the polling effort.
          getconnected.honeywell.com | I work for Honeywell. Any posts I make are purely to help if I can. Any personal views expressed are my own

          Comment

          • top brake
            Automated Home Legend
            • Feb 2015
            • 837

            #6
            sorry this will not work

            Originally posted by electronicsuk View Post
            You could buy a 'dumb' 868Mhz repeater and see if that gives you any joy. I'm not hopeful, but at less than $25 it has to be worth a pop:

            http://www.aliexpress.com/store/prod...217483394.html
            I work for Resideo, posts are personal and my own views.

            Comment

            • Cchris
              Automated Home Sr Member
              • Nov 2015
              • 95

              #7
              Originally posted by Rameses View Post
              Sounds dumb - but have you taken batteries out and back in for the problem zone? I know this seems simple, but this resets the polling effort.
              Have not tried this on the two zones which are now regularly throwing problems, but this and making sure the base station was oriented in a specific direction has resolved another zone that was giving issues.

              However the two zones left that are throwing problems are at 45 degrees to one another so the base station orientation will probably only help one.

              I'm amazed that honeywell don't do a range extender so this system can work in larger homes and those with more solid walls than modern new builds. I've spent over three grand on the kit alone, a couple of repeaters at 50-60 each would not add a huge amount to the budget in order to get it to work properly.

              Unless anyone from honeywell knows how the radiator modules can be tweaked to have their signal turned up a bit?

              Originally posted by top brake View Post
              sorry this will not work
              Any idea what will work? Straight line distance between the base station and the zones giving issues is about 15-20m. There are just two cavity walls in the way. I'm not asking it to work in a castle.

              Comment

              • G4RHL
                Automated Home Legend
                • Jan 2015
                • 1580

                #8
                Originally posted by Cchris View Post

                Any idea what will work? Straight line distance between the base station and the zones giving issues is about 15-20m. There are just two cavity walls in the way. I'm not asking it to work in a castle.
                Do you by any chance have solar panels installed or perhaps neighbours either side of of you? They can create interference which could block or reduce the range of the signal path. I have no experience of this at the frequencies used by Honeywell but know it can happen with other frequencies. Just a thought. Wonder if Honeywell have any input to give us on the affects of solar panels on their systems? My neighbour has solar panels on his roof. It does not affect my Evohome system but does affect other wireless gear I have.

                Comment

                • top brake
                  Automated Home Legend
                  • Feb 2015
                  • 837

                  #9
                  Common Installation Issues
                  There are a small number of common issues that we are
                  seeing installers experience – these are not due to faulty
                  product and can easily be overcome once identified.
                  Wireless devices too close together. Honeywell’s
                  wireless technology is robust and designed to not
                  interfere with or be interfered by other wireless products,
                  when installed as instructed.
                  The golden rules to follow are:
                  1. Install any Wireless devices, especially the wireless
                  relay boxes, at least 30cm apart. If these are installed
                  too close together, it will reduce the sensitivity of the
                  signal leading to communications issues and may
                  cause firing of the boiler when there is no demand.
                  2. Ensure that the wireless signal is not being blocked by
                  large metal objects or foil lined plaster board. Again
                  this will weaken the signal.

                  Originally posted by Cchris View Post
                  Have not tried this on the two zones which are now regularly throwing problems, but this and making sure the base station was oriented in a specific direction has resolved another zone that was giving issues.

                  However the two zones left that are throwing problems are at 45 degrees to one another so the base station orientation will probably only help one.

                  I'm amazed that honeywell don't do a range extender so this system can work in larger homes and those with more solid walls than modern new builds. I've spent over three grand on the kit alone, a couple of repeaters at 50-60 each would not add a huge amount to the budget in order to get it to work properly.

                  Unless anyone from honeywell knows how the radiator modules can be tweaked to have their signal turned up a bit?


                  Any idea what will work? Straight line distance between the base station and the zones giving issues is about 15-20m. There are just two cavity walls in the way. I'm not asking it to work in a castle.
                  I work for Resideo, posts are personal and my own views.

                  Comment

                  • top brake
                    Automated Home Legend
                    • Feb 2015
                    • 837

                    #10
                    In the event that
                    you continue to have problems, we would ask that any
                    request for assistance is accompanied by the following:
                    1. A brief overview of the system configuration, e.g
                    number of zones, type of heating system etc.
                    2. The nature of the issues being seen.
                    3. A photo of the position of the wireless relays installed.
                    4. A photo of the position of the evohome controller.
                    5. A photo of the evohome home screen (not the idle
                    screen).
                    6. A photo of the fault log (This can be accessed via the
                    installer settings on the evohome controller).
                    This information is required (along with any other
                    information you feel is pertinent) in order for us to both
                    understand the system configuration and avoid any
                    further delays in providing assistance.
                    I work for Resideo, posts are personal and my own views.

                    Comment

                    • Cchris
                      Automated Home Sr Member
                      • Nov 2015
                      • 95

                      #11
                      Hi,

                      Thanks again for the replies. There is no solar nearby, nor any foil backed plasterboards.

                      I can get photos of the fault logs once I get home, but basic overview is as follows:

                      twin boiler setup with DHW unvented cylinder.

                      2 controllers, one upstairs, one downstairs
                      29 radiators split into a total of 20 zones
                      2 underfloor heating zones controlled by wireless room stats and evohome manifold controller.

                      Downstairs controller does 9 zones plus DHW
                      Upstairs controller does 11 zones.

                      Ive attached two images showing the layout of the system. All walls from the kitchen leftward are cavity walls, this follows upstairs also. All other walls are solid walls with the exception of the dressing rooms and en suites on the left of the house.

                      The wireless relays and the DHW sensor were moved into the house, because when positioned in the garage it was impossible to locate the downstairs controller in a position where it could contact both the wireless relays and the HR92's in the lounge. The position of the controller as shown and oriented with its back to the lounge results in (touch wood) no communications faults/drop outs. If I turn the controller so it faces into the kitchen and is more easily read, then it will lose communication with the sensors or actuators on the lounge radiators. If I move the controller to the main entrance hall, it will lose communication to the wireless relays.

                      Upstairs, the controller is simply sat on the floor in the master bedroom hallway near the door. This will regularly drop communication with the cinema actuators/sensors, and occasionally with the left most bedroom (one above the family room). If I move the controller further left to an ideal location in the master bedroom, it will completely lose communication with both bedrooms to the far right of the house. If I move the controller to another ideal location on the hallway/landing upstairs, it will completely lose communication with the cinema and frequently with the bedroom to the far left.

                      I appreciate the house is large in terms of its distance from one end to the other as it is not a conventional square shape, and the construction is not helpful having so many solid walls, but Im hoping there is something that can be done to fix these issues, which seem to be down to the strength of the signal being emitted from the radiators, or the design of the antenna in the controller unit.

                      It just seems bonkers that with a system capable of being expanded to accomodate multiple controllers, and up to 24 zones in this case, that there is no way to have a range extender box, or it using "mesh" type technology that items like wireless alarms do so the signal from any individual device doesn't have to go all the way back to base on its own, it can bounce through other devices to get back to the controller. Im really hoping Honeywell can do something to address these range issues by some tweak of the unit or valves somehow.

                      GF Plan Evohome.jpg

                      FF Plan Evohome.jpg

                      Comment

                      • top brake
                        Automated Home Legend
                        • Feb 2015
                        • 837

                        #12
                        Hi Chris

                        Looks like a large property and the fact that you are trying to transmit through several external walls will mean that the signal strength will be reduced

                        this case is an example of why it is always recommended to carry out a wireless signal strength check before specifying

                        you mention that the evohome controller is on the floor, can you supply pictures please

                        Originally posted by Cchris View Post
                        Hi,

                        Thanks again for the replies. There is no solar nearby, nor any foil backed plasterboards.

                        I can get photos of the fault logs once I get home, but basic overview is as follows:

                        twin boiler setup with DHW unvented cylinder.

                        2 controllers, one upstairs, one downstairs
                        29 radiators split into a total of 20 zones
                        2 underfloor heating zones controlled by wireless room stats and evohome manifold controller.

                        Downstairs controller does 9 zones plus DHW
                        Upstairs controller does 11 zones.

                        Ive attached two images showing the layout of the system. All walls from the kitchen leftward are cavity walls, this follows upstairs also. All other walls are solid walls with the exception of the dressing rooms and en suites on the left of the house.

                        The wireless relays and the DHW sensor were moved into the house, because when positioned in the garage it was impossible to locate the downstairs controller in a position where it could contact both the wireless relays and the HR92's in the lounge. The position of the controller as shown and oriented with its back to the lounge results in (touch wood) no communications faults/drop outs. If I turn the controller so it faces into the kitchen and is more easily read, then it will lose communication with the sensors or actuators on the lounge radiators. If I move the controller to the main entrance hall, it will lose communication to the wireless relays.

                        Upstairs, the controller is simply sat on the floor in the master bedroom hallway near the door. This will regularly drop communication with the cinema actuators/sensors, and occasionally with the left most bedroom (one above the family room). If I move the controller further left to an ideal location in the master bedroom, it will completely lose communication with both bedrooms to the far right of the house. If I move the controller to another ideal location on the hallway/landing upstairs, it will completely lose communication with the cinema and frequently with the bedroom to the far left.

                        I appreciate the house is large in terms of its distance from one end to the other as it is not a conventional square shape, and the construction is not helpful having so many solid walls, but Im hoping there is something that can be done to fix these issues, which seem to be down to the strength of the signal being emitted from the radiators, or the design of the antenna in the controller unit.

                        It just seems bonkers that with a system capable of being expanded to accomodate multiple controllers, and up to 24 zones in this case, that there is no way to have a range extender box, or it using "mesh" type technology that items like wireless alarms do so the signal from any individual device doesn't have to go all the way back to base on its own, it can bounce through other devices to get back to the controller. Im really hoping Honeywell can do something to address these range issues by some tweak of the unit or valves somehow.

                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]604[/ATTACH]

                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]605[/ATTACH]
                        I work for Resideo, posts are personal and my own views.

                        Comment

                        • Cchris
                          Automated Home Sr Member
                          • Nov 2015
                          • 95

                          #13
                          Hi Top Brake,

                          I can supply pictures when I get home, but its just going to be an EvoHome controller sat on a carpet, dont know how much help that will be?

                          The house is large, but not ridiculously big. the house is about 35m left to right, and with the controller sat in the middle, im probably trying to go 20m in a residential building. The datasheet says 30m in a residential building, so although there are a few sturdier walls than in new build type homes, I didn't expect the range to be as poor as it is. Neither did the installer.

                          As the system is designed for up to 12 zones out of the box, I would have thought the range woud be better than it is. If this were a bungalow, there are only 11 being used on the upstairs layout. Do Honeywell expect any 12 zone home to be much smaller? I appreciate that Honeywell may advise a signal check be carried out prior to installation, but if Honeywell are designing a system capable of serving (in this case) up to 24 zones, I would expect them to also develop a way of extending the range when the issue of signal strength is a concern.

                          I can get wifi plugin extenders, I can range extenders for wireless alarms, or they use technology that can daisy chain devices in order to ensure a good signal to the far end devices. Are Honeywell looking into any solution that would extend the range of this system?

                          It would seem that those with the most to save by employing a system where individual room control is possible, are those that have lots of rooms or large homes. In this case the Honeywell is perfect as it is far more than a single thermostat like Hive etc that would still see an entire floor being heated. Yet the system doesnt work in homes that have the most to save by installing it? Seems a bit crazy.

                          Im happy to trial or guinea pig any possible devices from Honeywell to test them in a real world scenario, if indeed any are being worked on. I really like the system, I just dont like the fact the range seems very poor in anything other than stud partition wall homes.

                          It would probably be possible to have a thrid controller positioned upstairs to do the cinema and far left bedroom area, but then it just gets messy on the app as I would have two controllers upstairs and one downstairs.

                          I would be happy to buy another controller if I could then somehow on the app configure it to show all my zones as one single site. Connecting to upstairs or downstairs as seperate sites is OK, but to then have "upstairs 2" would get messy. It also makes doing the simple things like custom programs or holiday mode an awful lot more tedious, as you have to do everything 2 or 3 times.

                          Is it possible to combine sites into one layout on the app?

                          Comment

                          • top brake
                            Automated Home Legend
                            • Feb 2015
                            • 837

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Cchris View Post
                            Hi Top Brake,

                            I can supply pictures when I get home, but its just going to be an EvoHome controller sat on a carpet, dont know how much help that will be?

                            The house is large, but not ridiculously big. the house is about 35m left to right, and with the controller sat in the middle, im probably trying to go 20m in a residential building. The datasheet says 30m in a residential building, so although there are a few sturdier walls than in new build type homes, I didn't expect the range to be as poor as it is. Neither did the installer.

                            As the system is designed for up to 12 zones out of the box, I would have thought the range woud be better than it is. If this were a bungalow, there are only 11 being used on the upstairs layout. Do Honeywell expect any 12 zone home to be much smaller? I appreciate that Honeywell may advise a signal check be carried out prior to installation, but if Honeywell are designing a system capable of serving (in this case) up to 24 zones, I would expect them to also develop a way of extending the range when the issue of signal strength is a concern.

                            I can get wifi plugin extenders, I can range extenders for wireless alarms, or they use technology that can daisy chain devices in order to ensure a good signal to the far end devices. Are Honeywell looking into any solution that would extend the range of this system?

                            It would seem that those with the most to save by employing a system where individual room control is possible, are those that have lots of rooms or large homes. In this case the Honeywell is perfect as it is far more than a single thermostat like Hive etc that would still see an entire floor being heated. Yet the system doesnt work in homes that have the most to save by installing it? Seems a bit crazy.

                            Im happy to trial or guinea pig any possible devices from Honeywell to test them in a real world scenario, if indeed any are being worked on. I really like the system, I just dont like the fact the range seems very poor in anything other than stud partition wall homes.

                            It would probably be possible to have a thrid controller positioned upstairs to do the cinema and far left bedroom area, but then it just gets messy on the app as I would have two controllers upstairs and one downstairs.

                            I would be happy to buy another controller if I could then somehow on the app configure it to show all my zones as one single site. Connecting to upstairs or downstairs as seperate sites is OK, but to then have "upstairs 2" would get messy. It also makes doing the simple things like custom programs or holiday mode an awful lot more tedious, as you have to do everything 2 or 3 times.

                            Is it possible to combine sites into one layout on the app?
                            why is the evo on the floor, why not try it on a stand, will help it to transmit and receive?

                            this sounds like a complex challenge and it may be that you need to engage the services of a Honeywell connected specialist
                            I work for Resideo, posts are personal and my own views.

                            Comment

                            • paulockenden
                              Automated Home Legend
                              • Apr 2015
                              • 1719

                              #15
                              I wonder whether you'd be better off splitting your house by end, rather than by floor. i.e. have everything up one end (upstairs and down) running off one controller, and everything at the other end running off the other?

                              P.

                              Comment

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