Phantom override

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  • DBMandrake
    Automated Home Legend
    • Sep 2014
    • 2361

    Phantom override

    Here's a strange one!

    Yesterday I installed two new HR92's (thanks Richard ) thus adding a 4th and 5th zone to the system in the Hall and Kitchen. I programmed in some initial schedules and everything seemed fine.

    This morning I woke to find the Bathroom set to 30 degrees - WTF ?

    The bathroom schedule over night is 5 degrees, and is set to come on to 22 degrees at 7am - and with optimum start set to 2 hours this means it does come on at exactly 5am as 22 degrees is about the limit of what the bathroom radiator can achieve. (Thus requires maximum pre-start time to get there) This bathroom schedule has not changed in weeks.

    When I got up at about 6:30 the bathroom was set to 30 degrees, and had the "timed override" stopwatch icon on the screen. Eh ? There is only one other person in the house and she was in bed and did not touch anything.

    At first I thought maybe I should be changing my Honeywell server password in case it had been guessed/hacked but then I realised that if a change had been made via the Honeywell API the icon would be the phone icon not the stopwatch icon. A stopwatch icon means an HR92 override or an override made at the main controller.

    I pulled up my munin graphs and can clearly see the set point changed from 5 degrees to 22 degrees at 5am, and then changed to 30 degrees at 5:40 - while we were asleep in bed upstairs! (The bathroom is downstairs)



    So either:

    1) We have Ghosts
    2) One of us sleep walks
    3) Someone is sitting outside my gate with an HCI80 and a laptop having fun
    4) Honeywell software bugs...

    I'm going with 4...

    Has anyone else had any spurious manual overrides show up like this ? I have had set points and manual overrides fail to be sent to remote devices from time to time but have never had this happen before.
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 11 May 2017, 03:14 PM.
  • DBMandrake
    Automated Home Legend
    • Sep 2014
    • 2361

    #2
    Ok this is getting seriously weird. I just noticed that the living room set point was doing all kinds of crazy things in the night!



    The living room is set to drop to 5 degrees at 11:30 pm and often gets manually turned down to 5 degrees before that time anyway. And is scheduled to stay at 5 degrees until the following evening. (It does not come on at all in the mornings during the work week)

    So what on earth is that set point (blue line) up to between 2am and 4am ?????? It has warmed the room right back up to 20 degrees for no reason that I can see. There is nothing in the schedule that would set the room to anything other than 5 degrees in the night and nobody was up.
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 11 May 2017, 03:15 PM.

    Comment

    • Rameses
      Industry Expert
      • Nov 2014
      • 446

      #3
      Hi - Just DM'd you
      getconnected.honeywell.com | I work for Honeywell. Any posts I make are purely to help if I can. Any personal views expressed are my own

      Comment

      • DBMandrake
        Automated Home Legend
        • Sep 2014
        • 2361

        #4
        Thanks.

        For now I have reset the controller by taking the batteries out for 15 minutes and will keep an eye on the graphs to see if it happens again.

        Comment

        • morpheus
          Automated Home Sr Member
          • Apr 2016
          • 68

          #5
          Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
          Here's a strange one!

          Yesterday I installed two new HR92's (thanks Richard ) thus adding a 4th and 5th zone to the system in the Hall and Kitchen. I programmed in some initial schedules and everything seemed fine.

          This morning I woke to find the Bathroom set to 30 degrees - WTF ?

          The bathroom schedule over night is 5 degrees, and is set to come on to 22 degrees at 7am - and with optimum start set to 2 hours this means it does come on at exactly 5am as 22 degrees is about the limit of what the bathroom radiator can achieve. (Thus requires maximum pre-start time to get there) This bathroom schedule has not changed in weeks.

          When I got up at about 6:30 the bathroom was set to 30 degrees, and had the "timed override" stopwatch icon on the screen. Eh ? There is only one other person in the house and she was in bed and did not touch anything.

          At first I thought maybe I should be changing my Honeywell server password in case it had been guessed/hacked but then I realised that if a change had been made via the Honeywell API the icon would be the phone icon not the stopwatch icon. A stopwatch icon means an HR92 override or an override made at the main controller.

          I pulled up my munin graphs and can clearly see the set point changed from 5 degrees to 22 degrees at 5am, and then changed to 30 degrees at 5:40 - while we were asleep in bed upstairs! (The bathroom is downstairs)



          So either:

          1) We have Ghosts
          2) One of us sleep walks
          3) Someone is sitting outside my gate with an HCI80 and a laptop having fun
          4) Honeywell software bugs...

          I'm going with 4...

          Has anyone else had any spurious manual overrides show up like this ? I have had set points and manual overrides fail to be sent to remote devices from time to time but have never had this happen before.
          Hi DB, i have the exact same issue ...
          I have everything setup corectly with 8 zones (8 HR92's), and on 2 of them, not every day but always almost in the evening, the Override Icon also appears and "derogates" although nobody changed the temperature on the HR92 nor on the Evotouch itself.
          I have even setup the Evotouch to "Avoid Derogation" for those 2 zones, but still sometimes they derogate like if someone had changed the temperature on the HR92.

          I am in touch with the Honeywell Belgian support and their developpers are looking at this issue.
          They connected to my system ad were able to see the behavior, still under investigation, though ... (I didn't want to reset everything in order for them to be able to see the issue and investigate)

          Have you also contacted the support for correcting this ?
          Have you corrected it yourself ? how ? IS the issue appearing again ?

          Many thanks !!

          Comment

          • morpheus
            Automated Home Sr Member
            • Apr 2016
            • 68

            #6
            Someone has any update on this issue ?

            Comment

            • DBMandrake
              Automated Home Legend
              • Sep 2014
              • 2361

              #7
              It's hard to answer your questions when you still haven't explained what you mean by "Derogation" ??
              Last edited by DBMandrake; 17 April 2016, 05:40 PM.

              Comment

              • morpheus
                Automated Home Sr Member
                • Apr 2016
                • 68

                #8
                Sorry I am from Belgium and I though "Derogation" was an English word.
                By "Derogation" I mean the exact same behavior as described in the initial post meaning the Temperature of a zone "overrides" the programmed temperature without anybody has changed this temperature on the HR92 or on the Evotouch itself .... and the small "chronometer" icon is appearing just like if so has intentionally changed the temperature.

                Honeywell has connected on my system and they confirmed they were able to confirm what I am telling ... without being able to explain the behavior, so they asked me to remove the batteries from the Evotouch, what I did, but issue is still there.
                ...

                Comment

                • guyank
                  Automated Home Sr Member
                  • Sep 2015
                  • 73

                  #9
                  Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
                  Here's a strange one!

                  Yesterday I installed two new HR92's (thanks Richard ) thus adding a 4th and 5th zone to the system in the Hall and Kitchen. I programmed in some initial schedules and everything seemed fine.

                  This morning I woke to find the Bathroom set to 30 degrees - WTF ?

                  The bathroom schedule over night is 5 degrees, and is set to come on to 22 degrees at 7am - and with optimum start set to 2 hours this means it does come on at exactly 5am as 22 degrees is about the limit of what the bathroom radiator can achieve. (Thus requires maximum pre-start time to get there) This bathroom schedule has not changed in weeks.

                  When I got up at about 6:30 the bathroom was set to 30 degrees, and had the "timed override" stopwatch icon on the screen. Eh ? There is only one other person in the house and she was in bed and did not touch anything.

                  At first I thought maybe I should be changing my Honeywell server password in case it had been guessed/hacked but then I realised that if a change had been made via the Honeywell API the icon would be the phone icon not the stopwatch icon. A stopwatch icon means an HR92 override or an override made at the main controller.

                  I pulled up my munin graphs and can clearly see the set point changed from 5 degrees to 22 degrees at 5am, and then changed to 30 degrees at 5:40 - while we were asleep in bed upstairs! (The bathroom is downstairs)



                  So either:

                  1) We have Ghosts
                  2) One of us sleep walks
                  3) Someone is sitting outside my gate with an HCI80 and a laptop having fun
                  4) Honeywell software bugs...

                  I'm going with 4...

                  Has anyone else had any spurious manual overrides show up like this ? I have had set points and manual overrides fail to be sent to remote devices from time to time but have never had this happen before.
                  I am experiencing fairly regular phantom overrides, but they occur differently. I use IFTTT to set the heating to economy when we leave and then cancel all quick actions when we return home. Probably once a week, when the quick action is cancelled, some zones (the most I've every seen is 2 zones) stay at the Economy set point and the timer appears showing a manual override. They remain at this temperature until the next set point time is reached.

                  Very strange

                  Comment

                  • top brake
                    Automated Home Legend
                    • Feb 2015
                    • 837

                    #10
                    Originally posted by guyank View Post
                    I am experiencing fairly regular phantom overrides, but they occur differently. I use IFTTT to set the heating to economy when we leave and then cancel all quick actions when we return home. Probably once a week, when the quick action is cancelled, some zones (the most I've every seen is 2 zones) stay at the Economy set point and the timer appears showing a manual override. They remain at this temperature until the next set point time is reached.

                    Very strange
                    are you still experiencing these overides?

                    it points to an error with the HR92 controllers in that zone so initially please remove and refit the batteries in the HR92 in that particular zone and see if that cures the behaviors.

                    if you still experience issues please contact Honeywell Consumer Support with 'phantom override' as title
                    I work for Resideo, posts are personal and my own views.

                    Comment

                    • morpheus
                      Automated Home Sr Member
                      • Apr 2016
                      • 68

                      #11
                      Originally posted by top brake View Post
                      are you still experiencing these overides?

                      it points to an error with the HR92 controllers in that zone so initially please remove and refit the batteries in the HR92 in that particular zone and see if that cures the behaviors.

                      if you still experience issues please contact Honeywell Consumer Support with 'phantom override' as title
                      I am in contact with Honeywell support, and they provided me a "procedure", which seemed to work for one of the zones I had the problem on and used the "fix" on :

                      Effectively remove the batteries of the HR92 for a few linutes, but NOT within the 4 minutes after the hour or half an hour.
                      This "fix" worked for me, as this zone is not presenting the issue for a few weeks anymore.
                      I still need to use the fix on the other zones I have the issue on, but I am monitorig right now.

                      The fact that Honeywell support secifically told me about those 4 minutes after the hour and half hour let me think they found the root cause of the issue .... to be continued ...

                      Comment

                      • guyank
                        Automated Home Sr Member
                        • Sep 2015
                        • 73

                        #12
                        I'll give this a try. I haven't noticed it this week and it doesn't always seem to be the same zones.

                        Comment

                        • morpheus
                          Automated Home Sr Member
                          • Apr 2016
                          • 68

                          #13
                          Originally posted by guyank View Post
                          I'll give this a try. I haven't noticed it this week and it doesn't always seem to be the same zones.
                          ...make sure you do not remove or plus the batteries back in the HR92 4 withing the 4 minutes preceding or following the hour or half hour.

                          For me I had 2 "defect" zones", I solved the issu on one of them by this procedure, still need to appy the fix on the other zone.
                          issue is not always appearing at the same time / same day, it is quite random (Although one of the zones was always going in derogation during the week days arounf 18.30 pm ...)

                          Good luck, and I keep you posted.

                          Comment

                          • morpheus
                            Automated Home Sr Member
                            • Apr 2016
                            • 68

                            #14
                            I got some more information from development, but first I want to confirm that since I have removed and put back the batteries outside of the 4 minutes after the hour or half an hour, I have not got the problem anymore on that faulty zone.

                            The information I got from development is that there is an hourly legacy report generated by the HR92 to the Evohome. This report is generated at the time batteries were set on the HR92, and this report is overwriting the T° setpoint change from the Evohome (normal program zone) if the setpoint as not been sent yet to from the Evohome to the HR92 (due to the 4 minutes syncs).
                            So as far as I understad, I had setup the HR92 at the same moment I have a T° setpoint change in the Evohome ...

                            to be continued

                            Comment

                            • DBMandrake
                              Automated Home Legend
                              • Sep 2014
                              • 2361

                              #15
                              Originally posted by morpheus View Post
                              I got some more information from development, but first I want to confirm that since I have removed and put back the batteries outside of the 4 minutes after the hour or half an hour, I have not got the problem anymore on that faulty zone.

                              The information I got from development is that there is an hourly legacy report generated by the HR92 to the Evohome. This report is generated at the time batteries were set on the HR92, and this report is overwriting the T° setpoint change from the Evohome (normal program zone) if the setpoint as not been sent yet to from the Evohome to the HR92 (due to the 4 minutes syncs).
                              So as far as I understad, I had setup the HR92 at the same moment I have a T° setpoint change in the Evohome ...

                              to be continued
                              Thanks for reporting that, that is quite interesting, and does fit in with my (limited) understanding of how the wireless protocol works.

                              I have not had any further issues with my two phantom zones, and at some point between then and now I have removed the batteries from both affected HR92's and probably by chance put them back in outside of the two "danger zones" just past the hour and half hour, hence have not had further issues.

                              There is another somewhat similar bug since the wifi controller update that enabled local override display - if you set a local override on an HR92 this is reported to the controller typically within about 10 seconds, so the controller is definitely aware of the new zone set point. However if you then cancel that override from the controller before the next 4 minute "set point broadcast" from the controller to the HR92 it does not send a set point update to the HR92 to put it back to the normal scheduled temperature.

                              Thus the two get out of sync - the controller believes that the zone set point is back to what the schedule says it should be (for example 5 degrees in an unused room) but the HR92 is still set to something else entirely, and they will not "re-sync" until the next scheduled set point change. So you could end up with the controller reporting a 5 degree set point for a zone, (even "OFF") but the HR92 being set to 20 degrees and calling for heat! (This has happened to me quite a few times until I realised what the cause was and simply avoided the behaviour that triggers it)

                              However if you wait at least 4 minutes (or until the "local override" icon on the HR92 display goes out, indicating that the zone override has been propagated back to the HR92 from the controller) before cancelling the override from the controller it does correctly update the set point on the HR92 back to what was scheduled.

                              The bug here seems to be that even though the HR92 has informed the controller of a manual override, if the controller has not yet sent a set point update back to the HR92 before you cancel the override, it does not send any set point update at all. Should be fairly easy to fix in a controller firmware update...
                              Last edited by DBMandrake; 9 May 2016, 11:57 AM.

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