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Thread: Phantom override

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by top brake View Post
    are you still experiencing these overides?

    it points to an error with the HR92 controllers in that zone so initially please remove and refit the batteries in the HR92 in that particular zone and see if that cures the behaviors.

    if you still experience issues please contact Honeywell Consumer Support with 'phantom override' as title
    I am in contact with Honeywell support, and they provided me a "procedure", which seemed to work for one of the zones I had the problem on and used the "fix" on :

    Effectively remove the batteries of the HR92 for a few linutes, but NOT within the 4 minutes after the hour or half an hour.
    This "fix" worked for me, as this zone is not presenting the issue for a few weeks anymore.
    I still need to use the fix on the other zones I have the issue on, but I am monitorig right now.

    The fact that Honeywell support secifically told me about those 4 minutes after the hour and half hour let me think they found the root cause of the issue .... to be continued ...

  2. #12
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    I'll give this a try. I haven't noticed it this week and it doesn't always seem to be the same zones.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyank View Post
    I'll give this a try. I haven't noticed it this week and it doesn't always seem to be the same zones.
    ...make sure you do not remove or plus the batteries back in the HR92 4 withing the 4 minutes preceding or following the hour or half hour.

    For me I had 2 "defect" zones", I solved the issu on one of them by this procedure, still need to appy the fix on the other zone.
    issue is not always appearing at the same time / same day, it is quite random (Although one of the zones was always going in derogation during the week days arounf 18.30 pm ...)

    Good luck, and I keep you posted.

  4. #14
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    I got some more information from development, but first I want to confirm that since I have removed and put back the batteries outside of the 4 minutes after the hour or half an hour, I have not got the problem anymore on that faulty zone.

    The information I got from development is that there is an hourly legacy report generated by the HR92 to the Evohome. This report is generated at the time batteries were set on the HR92, and this report is overwriting the T setpoint change from the Evohome (normal program zone) if the setpoint as not been sent yet to from the Evohome to the HR92 (due to the 4 minutes syncs).
    So as far as I understad, I had setup the HR92 at the same moment I have a T setpoint change in the Evohome ...

    to be continued

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    I got some more information from development, but first I want to confirm that since I have removed and put back the batteries outside of the 4 minutes after the hour or half an hour, I have not got the problem anymore on that faulty zone.

    The information I got from development is that there is an hourly legacy report generated by the HR92 to the Evohome. This report is generated at the time batteries were set on the HR92, and this report is overwriting the T setpoint change from the Evohome (normal program zone) if the setpoint as not been sent yet to from the Evohome to the HR92 (due to the 4 minutes syncs).
    So as far as I understad, I had setup the HR92 at the same moment I have a T setpoint change in the Evohome ...

    to be continued
    Thanks for reporting that, that is quite interesting, and does fit in with my (limited) understanding of how the wireless protocol works.

    I have not had any further issues with my two phantom zones, and at some point between then and now I have removed the batteries from both affected HR92's and probably by chance put them back in outside of the two "danger zones" just past the hour and half hour, hence have not had further issues.

    There is another somewhat similar bug since the wifi controller update that enabled local override display - if you set a local override on an HR92 this is reported to the controller typically within about 10 seconds, so the controller is definitely aware of the new zone set point. However if you then cancel that override from the controller before the next 4 minute "set point broadcast" from the controller to the HR92 it does not send a set point update to the HR92 to put it back to the normal scheduled temperature.

    Thus the two get out of sync - the controller believes that the zone set point is back to what the schedule says it should be (for example 5 degrees in an unused room) but the HR92 is still set to something else entirely, and they will not "re-sync" until the next scheduled set point change. So you could end up with the controller reporting a 5 degree set point for a zone, (even "OFF") but the HR92 being set to 20 degrees and calling for heat! (This has happened to me quite a few times until I realised what the cause was and simply avoided the behaviour that triggers it)

    However if you wait at least 4 minutes (or until the "local override" icon on the HR92 display goes out, indicating that the zone override has been propagated back to the HR92 from the controller) before cancelling the override from the controller it does correctly update the set point on the HR92 back to what was scheduled.

    The bug here seems to be that even though the HR92 has informed the controller of a manual override, if the controller has not yet sent a set point update back to the HR92 before you cancel the override, it does not send any set point update at all. Should be fairly easy to fix in a controller firmware update...
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 9th May 2016 at 12:57 PM.

  6. #16
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    I will test and let you know.

    P.S. Please note If I am correct the "danger zone" which is for me 4 minutes after the hour and fter the half an hour will depend from people to people ... I think Honeywell told me this timeframe because they saw that the PRogram I was using for that faulty zone was 18:00 to 18:30, so fixed hour and half hour.
    I still need to check with Honeywell but it could be that someone who has the phantom override issue on a zone for which there is a progeam from 18:10 to 19:20 should swap the batteries out site of the hour:10 - hour:14 and hour:20 - hour:24 timeframe ...

  7. #17
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    I've been giving this some more thought and I don't think this explains the problem I was seeing and reported at the beginning of this thread, although it does seem to explain what you were seeing.

    Here is my understanding of your issue based on what you've fed back from Honeywell support:

    Apparently an HR92 sends a set point change / update message to the Evotouch every 30 minutes counting from the time the device booted (battery insertion) even though you are not adjusting the control wheel. This is presumably to help the HR92 automatically resync with the controller should the controller be rebooted. This set point update simply sends the current set point the HR92 is set to, and the message is presumably the same or similar message that is sent if you actually turned the wheel to make a change to the set point.

    However this creates a window of opportunity of up to 4 minutes when the controller has a scheduled set point change. For example:

    Before 9am the set point is 5 degrees, at 9am it is scheduled to change to 20 degrees. However that message is not sent from the Evotouch immediately - it waits for the next 4 minute communication period for that HR92 before sending the message, so the message could actually be sent any time between 9am and 9:04am depending on when the periodic 4 minute communication window to that HR92 falls. Lets say it will be sent at 9:03am. Between 9am and 9:03am the controller set point is 20 degrees but the HR92 set point is still 5 degrees.

    At the same time the HR92 is sending its current set point (5 degrees) back to the controller every 30 minutes since it booted. If that 30 minute set point sending interval happened to fall between 9am and 9:03am this would be interpreted as a manual override to 5 degrees, because the controller currently believes the zone is set to 20 degrees even though it hasn't actually sent the set point change to the HR92 yet. Thus you get a manual override icon on the screen and the zone temperature reverts to what it was before the set point change - in this case 5 degrees. Because the set point was changed back to what it already was before 9am, no set point update message to 20 degrees ever gets sent to the HR92.

    To the user it appears that someone manually overrode the temperature back to the previous set point.

    The window of opportunity is a maximum of 4 minutes, but the actual value is going to depend on how the 4 minute communication cycle to the HR92 is aligned with the system time, since automated set point changes can only occur on 10 minute intervals. (5 if you use optimum start, I think, since optimum start makes 15 minute adjustments) And whether that window of opportunity is hit at all in practice is going to depend on the timing of the periodic 30 minute update from the HR92.

    The worst case scenario is that a 4 minute cycle occurs just before a 5/10 minute clock interval (say 4:59) which means you have to wait up to about 4 minutes for a set point change to be sent out - any 30 minute broadcast from the HR92 during that 4 minute window will cause the issue, if a set point change was due. On the other hand say the 4 minute interval was aligned 30 seconds after the set point change, now there is only a 30 second window of opportunity for that 30 minute broadcast to cause a problem - much less likely to happen.

    This only applies to scheduled set point changes that fall on even 5/10 minute boundaries of course, a manual set point change made by the user from the controller or via phone app is still potentially at risk if you are unlucky with the timing of when you make the change...

    This poses some interesting questions - it sounds like the 30 minute interval is specific to each HR92 and basically begins when the batteries are connected and the device boots - thus the advice to reboot the HR92 avoiding certain times to avoid any clashes with your normal set point changes for the zone.

    However its not clear where the 4 minute cycles start from (are they established by the HR92, or by the controller ?) and whether they are different for each zone/HR92 or nearly the same for all of the HR92's... From my own observations it seems that after turning the heating on there will be a delay of up to 4 minutes then most (all ?) HR92's will start opening at roughly the same time, which makes me think the controller may be what is establishing the 4 minute cycle, and that each zone is communicated with fairly rapidly in sequence - eg not all at the exact same moment, but they are not randomly staggered either as all the valves start to open within a few seconds of each other.

    It will be interesting to see how they fix this problem - especially if they have to do so with only a controller firmware update. Although HR92's have mini USB sockets and are probably theoretically field upgradable, if the older colour controller is anything to go by I think it's very unlikely that Honeywell would offer a USB based firmware update for HR92's to end users unless the problem was critical and couldn't be solved another way...

    The reason why I don't believe I was seeing the same problem as you, is because during the period that I was seeing random set point changes it was not a simple case of the set point reverting back to what it was after a scheduled set point change - it occurred over night when there were no scheduled set point changes, and the temperature jumped up and down to several different temperatures seemingly at random, some of which were odd temperatures I don't even have scheduled at any time on any zones...(like 30 degrees - ouch!)
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 11th May 2016 at 01:39 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBMandrake View Post
    I've been giving this some more thought and I don't think this explains the problem I was seeing and reported at the beginning of this thread, although it does seem to explain what you were seeing.

    Here is my understanding of your issue based on what you've fed back from Honeywell support:

    Apparently an HR92 sends a set point change / update message to the Evotouch every 30 minutes counting from the time the device booted (battery insertion) even though you are not adjusting the control wheel. This is presumably to help the HR92 automatically resync with the controller should the controller be rebooted. This set point update simply sends the current set point the HR92 is set to, and the message is presumably the same or similar message that is sent if you actually turned the wheel to make a change to the set point.

    However this creates a window of opportunity of up to 4 minutes when the controller has a scheduled set point change. For example:

    Before 9am the set point is 5 degrees, at 9am it is scheduled to change to 20 degrees. However that message is not sent from the Evotouch immediately - it waits for the next 4 minute communication period for that HR92 before sending the message, so the message could actually be sent any time between 9am and 9:04am depending on when the periodic 4 minute communication window to that HR92 falls. Lets say it will be sent at 9:03am. Between 9am and 9:03am the controller set point is 20 degrees but the HR92 set point is still 5 degrees.

    At the same time the HR92 is sending its current set point (5 degrees) back to the controller every 30 minutes since it booted. If that 30 minute set point sending interval happened to fall between 9am and 9:03am this would be interpreted as a manual override to 5 degrees, because the controller currently believes the zone is set to 20 degrees even though it hasn't actually sent the set point change to the HR92 yet. Thus you get a manual override icon on the screen and the zone temperature reverts to what it was before the set point change - in this case 5 degrees. Because the set point was changed back to what it already was before 9am, no set point update message to 20 degrees ever gets sent to the HR92.

    To the user it appears that someone manually overrode the temperature back to the previous set point.

    The window of opportunity is a maximum of 4 minutes, but the actual value is going to depend on how the 4 minute communication cycle to the HR92 is aligned with the system time, since automated set point changes can only occur on 10 minute intervals. (5 if you use optimum start, I think, since optimum start makes 15 minute adjustments) And whether that window of opportunity is hit at all in practice is going to depend on the timing of the periodic 30 minute update from the HR92.

    The worst case scenario is that a 4 minute cycle occurs just before a 5/10 minute clock interval (say 4:59) which means you have to wait up to about 4 minutes for a set point change to be sent out - any 30 minute broadcast from the HR92 during that 4 minute window will cause the issue, if a set point change was due. On the other hand say the 4 minute interval was aligned 30 seconds after the set point change, now there is only a 30 second window of opportunity for that 30 minute broadcast to cause a problem - much less likely to happen.

    This only applies to scheduled set point changes that fall on even 5/10 minute boundaries of course, a manual set point change made by the user from the controller or via phone app is still potentially at risk if you are unlucky with the timing of when you make the change...

    This poses some interesting questions - it sounds like the 30 minute interval is specific to each HR92 and basically begins when the batteries are connected and the device boots - thus the advice to reboot the HR92 avoiding certain times to avoid any clashes with your normal set point changes for the zone.

    However its not clear where the 4 minute cycles start from (are they established by the HR92, or by the controller ?) and whether they are different for each zone/HR92 or nearly the same for all of the HR92's... From my own observations it seems that after turning the heating on there will be a delay of up to 4 minutes then most (all ?) HR92's will start opening at roughly the same time, which makes me think the controller may be what is establishing the 4 minute cycle, and that each zone is communicated with fairly rapidly in sequence - eg not all at the exact same moment, but they are not randomly staggered either as all the valves start to open within a few seconds of each other.

    It will be interesting to see how they fix this problem - especially if they have to do so with only a controller firmware update. Although HR92's have mini USB sockets and are probably theoretically field upgradable, if the older colour controller is anything to go by I think it's very unlikely that Honeywell would offer a USB based firmware update for HR92's to end users unless the problem was critical and couldn't be solved another way...

    The reason why I don't believe I was seeing the same problem as you, is because during the period that I was seeing random set point changes it was not a simple case of the set point reverting back to what it was after a scheduled set point change - it occurred over night when there were no scheduled set point changes, and the temperature jumped up and down to several different temperatures seemingly at random, some of which were odd temperatures I don't even have scheduled at any time on any zones...(like 30 degrees - ouch!)
    To be honest I started to read half of the lessage then got lost in your explanations, but I think I got it anyway ;-)

    I understand the issue is simply that if the HR92 is sending its legacy report within the 4 minutes following a program change on the controller, the controller will set this setpoint and therefore override the program.
    Please note the zone which Honeywell investigation on my system had a program change at 18:00 then at 18:30, and that is probably why they ask me to swap the batteries outside of the 4 minutes AFTER the hour and half the hour.

    If my faulty zone had a program change at 18:15 then 19:45, they would probably have asked to swap the batteries outside of the hour:15 > hour:19 AND hour:45 -> hour:49 ...


    For your information, the faulty zone where I swapped the batteries never got faulty anymore.
    A second faulty zone Honeywell asked me to try to set is as "multi" ... I set it up yesterday and no issue anymore on that one neither ...

    Now, I understand your point where you say for you it happened during the night where no setpoint change was programmed .... but you seem to say there is another reason why for you this is another issue ? Which reason ?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    Now, I understand your point where you say for you it happened during the night where no setpoint change was programmed .... but you seem to say there is another reason why for you this is another issue ? Which reason ?
    I have no idea what the cause of it might be, just that I don't think it's the same issue you are seeing. As it has not happened again it doesn't give me much chance to analyse the behaviour any further - the two graphs in this thread are the only record I have of it ever occurring. Until it happens again I'm not going to worry about it.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    I understand the issue is simply that if the HR92 is sending its legacy report within the 4 minutes following a program change on the controller, the controller will set this setpoint and therefore override the program.
    Please note the zone which Honeywell investigation on my system had a program change at 18:00 then at 18:30, and that is probably why they ask me to swap the batteries outside of the 4 minutes AFTER the hour and half the hour.

    If my faulty zone had a program change at 18:15 then 19:45, they would probably have asked to swap the batteries outside of the hour:15 > hour:19 AND hour:45 -> hour:49 ...


    For your information, the faulty zone where I swapped the batteries never got faulty anymore.
    I've just observed the same issue you describe twice in the last week.

    A couple of days ago I overrode the Bathroom from the scheduled 16 degrees to 20 degrees until 11:30 am (about an hour away) via the main controller in preparation for a shower. About 15 minutes later I happened to glance at the controller and to my surprise it was showing a manual override until 11:30 not of 20 degrees, but of 16 degrees...so the temperature never actually changed and the bathroom was still cold... So this problem can also occur in response to a manual override at the controller, where the override temperature (but not override time) get reverted.

    An incident earlier in the week I did not directly observe but I caught via my graphs. At a time when the bathroom was scheduled to drop from 20 degrees to 16 degrees there was a small downwards blip on the graph to 16 degrees for one 5 minute sample period and then the temperature was back to 20 degrees again until the next set point change to 5 degrees - some 10 hours away... so in this case it caused the zone to remain too hot for a good 10 hours, as clearly observed when comparing the graph to my set point schedule.

    Now that I think back through my time of ownership there have been a few times where a temperature change I thought I had made had not been applied when I came back later - I had put it down to forgetfulness but in hindsight I think its pretty clear that I have seen this happen (albeit very rarely) over a long period of time.

    I really hope a proper solution to this with a software update is possible, rather than just workarounds.
    A second faulty zone Honeywell asked me to try to set is as "multi" ... I set it up yesterday and no issue anymore on that one neither ...
    Yes, because HR92's in multi-room zones don't override the set point on the controller. The HR92 will still be sending out the set point change that causes the problem, but the controller ignores it, like it used to before the local override display feature was added in a software update.

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