Measuring real time gas consumption

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  • chrisgare
    Automated Home Guru
    • Dec 2013
    • 182

    Measuring real time gas consumption

    For the last eight years I've been reading my gas meter every day which entails a trip outside come sun, rain or snow. All this was about trying to save gas and I ended up installing a wireless-based Honeywell Evohome system when it was first introduced.

    However, I made a nice discovery last week with some technology based on Z-wave wireless. This is a system made by the Danish company NorthQ (https://store.northq.com/collections/kits). This consists of a magnetic sensor that sticks to the gas meter, a small transmitter unit and a receiver/hub that connects to the home network. This sends gas meter readings to NorthQ's system where I can see a real-time graph of gas usage. It also allows you to export to Excel.

    Sometimes, just sometimes, technology can be magic and works first time!

    You can see the results from today here: http://www.gare.co.uk/images/q5.jpg

    The first peak is hot water, and the second heating the house in the morning.

    Chris
  • Mavis
    Automated Home Ninja
    • Oct 2014
    • 322

    #2
    I use Loop which sound as if it does the same thing - it has a transmitter that I stuck to the gas meter. In the app (and through the website) as well as a graphical depiction of both gas and electric usage, it also gives the current gas meter reading.

    Comment

    • paulockenden
      Automated Home Legend
      • Apr 2015
      • 1719

      #3
      Smappee also have a gas meter available.

      Comment

      • bruce_miranda
        Automated Home Legend
        • Jul 2014
        • 2307

        #4
        Originally posted by Mavis View Post
        I use Loop which sound as if it does the same thing - it has a transmitter that I stuck to the gas meter. In the app (and through the website) as well as a graphical depiction of both gas and electric usage, it also gives the current gas meter reading.
        The only thing that stopped me buying this is they force you to buy both electric and gas, if you just want gas. You can buy electric on it's own.

        Comment

        • HenGus
          Automated Home Legend
          • May 2014
          • 1001

          #5
          Originally posted by chrisgare View Post
          For the last eight years I've been reading my gas meter every day which entails a trip outside come sun, rain or snow. All this was about trying to save gas and I ended up installing a wireless-based Honeywell Evohome system when it was first introduced.

          However, I made a nice discovery last week with some technology based on Z-wave wireless. This is a system made by the Danish company NorthQ (https://store.northq.com/collections/kits). This consists of a magnetic sensor that sticks to the gas meter, a small transmitter unit and a receiver/hub that connects to the home network. This sends gas meter readings to NorthQ's system where I can see a real-time graph of gas usage. It also allows you to export to Excel.

          Sometimes, just sometimes, technology can be magic and works first time!

          You can see the results from today here: http://www.gare.co.uk/images/q5.jpg

          The first peak is hot water, and the second heating the house in the morning.

          Chris
          Wow - its not cheap. I think that I will stick with my daily meter reading when I put out the re-cycling each morning. Add the data to a 99p app called Meters, and you can get a graph of sorts.

          Comment

          • chrisgare
            Automated Home Guru
            • Dec 2013
            • 182

            #6
            Originally posted by HenGus View Post
            Wow - its not cheap. I think that I will stick with my daily meter reading when I put out the re-cycling each morning. Add the data to a 99p app called Meters, and you can get a graph of sorts.
            I can't say I disagree with you but it's use is aliagned with my philosophy associated with using Evohome and eTRVs before that. In those days their use was all about saving money and rightly so. However, these days it's all about comfort with saving cash being a secondary issue. Fortunately, with Evohome I can get the balance between these two needs perfect!

            Comment

            • HenGus
              Automated Home Legend
              • May 2014
              • 1001

              #7
              Originally posted by chrisgare View Post
              I can't say I disagree with you but it's use is aliagned with my philosophy associated with using Evohome and eTRVs before that. In those days their use was all about saving money and rightly so. However, these days it's all about comfort with saving cash being a secondary issue. Fortunately, with Evohome I can get the balance between these two needs perfect!
              I agree that Evohome is more about comfort than savings; however, I am not sure how real time usage monitoring adds value to Evohome's inbuilt functions? My energy supplier keeps telling me that it's smart meter will also save me £s: I am stubbornly resisting getting one for as long as possible.

              Comment

              • G4RHL
                Automated Home Legend
                • Jan 2015
                • 1580

                #8
                Originally posted by Mavis View Post
                I use Loop which sound as if it does the same thing - it has a transmitter that I stuck to the gas meter. In the app (and through the website) as well as a graphical depiction of both gas and electric usage, it also gives the current gas meter reading.
                I gave up using Loop a long time ago. Struck me as a waste. It worked sometimes and not others and I got messages saying there was no connection when there was. I binned it!

                Comment

                • chrisgare
                  Automated Home Guru
                  • Dec 2013
                  • 182

                  #9
                  Originally posted by HenGus View Post
                  I agree that Evohome is more about comfort than savings; however, I am not sure how real time usage monitoring adds value to Evohome's inbuilt functions? My energy supplier keeps telling me that it's smart meter will also save me £s: I am stubbornly resisting getting one for as long as possible.
                  Again I wouldn't particularly disagree with you but it took me a long time to get to Evohome before it was launched. I turn off my heating at 22:00 and turn it on at 07:00 and now I 15-minute data points I've been doing some calculations to see whether it might be more economical to keep the heating on overnight at a lower temperature to reduce the big blast in the morning. At least I can see how much usage heating, water and cooking use. Like electricity monitoring it will only be useful until I understand how things work now I can disaggregate the data. Like use I do not want a smart meter in the house as I believe I have no more major savings I can make.

                  Comment

                  • HenGus
                    Automated Home Legend
                    • May 2014
                    • 1001

                    #10
                    Originally posted by chrisgare View Post
                    Again I wouldn't particularly disagree with you but it took me a long time to get to Evohome before it was launched. I turn off my heating at 22:00 and turn it on at 07:00 and now I 15-minute data points I've been doing some calculations to see whether it might be more economical to keep the heating on overnight at a lower temperature to reduce the big blast in the morning. At least I can see how much usage heating, water and cooking use. Like electricity monitoring it will only be useful until I understand how things work now I can disaggregate the data. Like use I do not want a smart meter in the house as I believe I have no more major savings I can make.
                    Continuous/non-continuous operation of central heating is something that surfaces on the MSE forums every year. FWIW, I think that in zoned homes it is best just to let Evohome do its own thing and call for heat when, and wherever, it is needed. I yearn for a time when Evohome has a system of web-based reporting.

                    Comment

                    • DBMandrake
                      Automated Home Legend
                      • Sep 2014
                      • 2361

                      #11
                      Originally posted by chrisgare View Post
                      Again I wouldn't particularly disagree with you but it took me a long time to get to Evohome before it was launched. I turn off my heating at 22:00 and turn it on at 07:00 and now I 15-minute data points I've been doing some calculations to see whether it might be more economical to keep the heating on overnight at a lower temperature to reduce the big blast in the morning.
                      It's a common misconception that leaving the heating on "low" over night will use less gas than turning it off followed by a "big blast" to heat it back up again from a lower starting point in the morning, but it's not true.

                      Yes its the case that if you let the temperature drop further at night then the heating will have to run longer in the morning to heat it back up, however the extra gas use during the longer warm up period is offset by the reduced gas use earlier in the night when the heating went off earlier.

                      More importantly, heat loss through walls is directly proportional to the temperature difference between either side of those walls. If the outdoor temperature is 0 degrees and indoors is 10 degrees, heat loss through the exterior walls is half as much as it would be if it was 20 degrees indoors. The warmer the inside of the house is maintained at night through running the heating, the more total energy is used.

                      The longer the heating is off and the lower the inside temperature is allowed to drop during the night the less the total energy use is because the the rate of heat loss is redued during the period of lower inside temperature.

                      If you have a conventional (non-condensing) boiler, this is where the buck stops. Lower night time set points (or keeping it right off) uses less total energy without question. A lot less.

                      If you have a condensing boiler there is a minor wrinkle to this analysis though, because the efficiency of a condensing boiler starts to drop if the return flow temperature is above 55 degrees. In this case if you have opentherm to control the boiler the Evohome will run the boiler at a reduced flow temperature when rooms are up to temperature and just requiring "maintaining", while during initial heatup it will run the boiler at maximum (user set) flow temperature, which may result in non-condensing operation.

                      However in this case any significant set back is still going to cause a significant period of non condensing operating - even if you maintained a night time temperature of 15 degrees and a daytime temperature of 20 degrees, the Evohome would still ask for maximum flow temperature during most of the warm up period from about 15 to 18 degrees.

                      So there will be some penalty from a longer period of non-condensing operation of the boiler, but I very much doubt it would make it more efficient than simply turning off the heating at night. Turning it off or setting the lowest possible set point at night will still be a net gain for economy.

                      Any non-condensing penalty would also not apply at all at times of the year when you set your flow temperature back.
                      Last edited by DBMandrake; 10 October 2016, 08:54 PM.

                      Comment

                      • chrisgare
                        Automated Home Guru
                        • Dec 2013
                        • 182

                        #12
                        DBMandrake thanks and useful as usual even though that has been the story for many a year on chat sites like this. I've always believed this to be the case. I've done calculations based on the 'big blast' and 'ticking over' data I now have and theoretically this confirms your view by quite a margin. Of course, these sorts of calculations are very difficult to undertake because of the wide variation of outside temperature during the daily cycle. Several years back I did implement this approach in the mid-winter and I was shocked at how much more gas I used so the experiment did not last long.

                        Interestingly though, until I installed Evohome when it was first launched and replaced my 25-year old boiler, I had had the heating on twice a day for for my whole my home-owning life. I now have it on between 7 a.m. and 10 p.m for far less cost. I joined the 21st century and just love the comfort the new boiler and Evohome supply.

                        I've upgraded to each new controller model launched sold the old ones on Ebay for good prices so I have not lost that much cash. I needed the last one because I built an extension and needed 12 zones rather eight.

                        Comment

                        • HenGus
                          Automated Home Legend
                          • May 2014
                          • 1001

                          #13
                          Originally posted by chrisgare View Post
                          DBMandrake thanks and useful as usual even though that has been the story for many a year on chat sites like this. I've always believed this to be the case. I've done calculations based on the 'big blast' and 'ticking over' data I now have and theoretically this confirms your view by quite a margin. Of course, these sorts of calculations are very difficult to undertake because of the wide variation of outside temperature during the daily cycle. Several years back I did implement this approach in the mid-winter and I was shocked at how much more gas I used so the experiment did not last long.

                          Interestingly though, until I installed Evohome when it was first launched and replaced my 25-year old boiler, I had had the heating on twice a day for for my whole my home-owning life. I now have it on between 7 a.m. and 10 p.m for far less cost. I joined the 21st century and just love the comfort the new boiler and Evohome supply.

                          I've upgraded to each new controller model launched sold the old ones on Ebay for good prices so I have not lost that much cash. I needed the last one because I built an extension and needed 12 zones rather eight.
                          I think that the on/off versus continuously on argument is not as clear cut with Evohome as it is with a conventional programmer, thermostat, manual TRV heating configuration as off can effectively be achieved by turning down the target zone temperatures overnight. In other words, savings can be achieved in a different way. I doubt that many people dash around the house late at night turning down manual TRVs so timed on/off periods make a lot of sense. That said, if forums are to be believed there are many people who leave their CH on continuously and just turn the main thermostat down before going to bed.

                          Comment

                          • paulockenden
                            Automated Home Legend
                            • Apr 2015
                            • 1719

                            #14
                            I think to a degree it also depends on the home. The thermal mass, the insulation, etc.

                            There's also a comfort element. After an 'off' period a room can be technically up to temp (i.e. air temp is OK), but the floor, furniture, etc. can still feel cold.

                            Comment

                            • sandyman
                              Automated Home Sr Member
                              • Mar 2016
                              • 85

                              #15
                              even if you buy elec and gas, loop is damn sight cheaper than this danish thing. I use loop on both. gas (works well) and electric (tends to over-read on low consumption levels,I believe a known issue with inductive coupling), the website and app both work well.
                              once they have your data they will try and get you to switch via their price comparison system but if you just ignore that , make your own switching decision, and are happy for them to have their data which they undoubtedly use for comparison with other users and probably some relationship with energy suppliers, it works great.
                              N.B. I have no relationship with loop other than as a user.

                              Comment

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