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Thread: How are messages actually sent? One Zone not working - how to debug :(

  1. #1
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    Angry How are messages actually sent? One Zone not working - how to debug :(

    Hello!

    my first post to the forum, and im afraid its a problem - sigh..... So I have had the evo home system installed for about 4 months and then all of a sudden I noticed that I could not override the temperature in my study, for some reason it is just not calling for the heating to turn on. The installer came out but basically had to leave after 4 hrs and to be honest got really fed up with having to wait every 4 minute. He called up Honeywell who told him it was interference by the WLAN or the computer in the study - which it is not, as I have turned all this off to prove it... so I have a few questions...

    1) What is the actual message flow from the HR92 to make the heating turn on, for example...
    ---- Radiator valve has override set and opens the valve
    ---- Radiator valve sends packet / message to evohome controller - controller updates display showing new overridden temperature
    ---- Controller then sends packet/ message to the Heating Relay? Is there an ACK sent to the rad valve etc?
    ---- Heating relay turns opens valves, turns on pump, fires up boiler etc?

    are there any acknowledgements or messages sent between these processes? Do all the messages go to the evohome controller, and then this in turn sends the required message to the relay etc?? I have searched and searched for this but cant find the information

    2) In my scenario I have tested the radiator valve to the controller = 4/5 signal on all tests - it actually updates the value on the evohome controllers screen
    3) I have tested the evohome controller to the HR91 relay, 5 flashing red lights....
    4) I have used the phone app to change the value in the office, the evo home controller updates the display showing the new value, the new value gets sent to the radiator valve and is updated.
    5) The radiator valve can talk to the evohome controller (as proved in step 2), the evohome controller can talk to the HR91 (as proved in step 3).....
    5) ALL the other zones work fine, I can override them - heating turns on - I can use controller to change temp - heating turns on - I can use phone app - heating turns on.
    5) why oh why is it not working for the study zone!

    Any help really appreciated, its driving me nuts.. I have properly removed the binding, deleted the zone and rebound and STILL the same problem - I just don't get it... There are also no fault logs at all for COMMS etc etc!

  2. #2
    Automated Home Legend paulockenden's Avatar
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    I'd be tempted to delete the zone, clear the binding on the HR92 (15 second press), and start over. It sounds to me like the original binding perhaps didn't complete successfully.

    The thing about info from your wireless LAN should be taken with a pinch of salt - the two things operate on completely different frequencies.

  3. #3
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    Radiator HR92 sends demand message to Controller, controller then sends demand message to HR91 Relay, boiler starts to heat. Assuming there are no air locks and the lock-shield valve is open sufficiently heat should flow, you would hear it flow too.

    I would get near the valve (HR92) and using the App turn it down and would expect to hear the HR92 turn the heat down, the display would reflect the new demand temperature. Switch it off room temperature display if needs be.

    Then I would reverse the process and demand heat say 25 or higher, you should hear the valve move. If not suspect a HR92 fault. Exchange with a known working valve.

    If the valve moves, then you most likely have a blockage or air-lock that needs to be cleared.

    The Evohome system uses 868MHz which is no where near the 2.4Ghz or most other RF controllers on the market, it's a good design choice as little if any products use that RF band unlike the millions of devices on 433MHz like garage door openers, car door openers, thermometers, weather stations the list is endless.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by g6ejd View Post
    Radiator HR92 sends demand message to Controller, controller then sends demand message to HR91 Relay, boiler starts to heat. Assuming there are no air locks and the lock-shield valve is open sufficiently heat should flow, you would hear it flow too.

    I would get near the valve (HR92) and using the App turn it down and would expect to hear the HR92 turn the heat down, the display would reflect the new demand temperature. Switch it off room temperature display if needs be.

    Then I would reverse the process and demand heat say 25 or higher, you should hear the valve move. If not suspect a HR92 fault. Exchange with a known working valve.

    If the valve moves, then you most likely have a blockage or air-lock that needs to be cleared.

    The Evohome system uses 868MHz which is no where near the 2.4Ghz or most other RF controllers on the market, it's a good design choice as little if any products use that RF band unlike the millions of devices on 433MHz like garage door openers, car door openers, thermometers, weather stations the list is endless.
    thanks for the quick replies everyone, I have tried all the steps above can confirm that the valve works and moves, the heating adjustments are reflected in the evo home controller and the radiator valve itself the step that appears not to be happening if the evo home calling the HR91 - to check this I actually make the changes on the app, or the radiator itself and then run upstairs and watch for the relay to turn on (green light) - which it never does I thought maybe this was the number of runs per hour but again I changed this to 12 just for testing and still the HR91 does not turn on....

    this is the crazy part I just don't get, all the other zones call the HR91 fine!! its just this one that does not (even though the evohome reflects the changes, so it 100% talking to each other)

    sigh...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulockenden View Post
    I'd be tempted to delete the zone, clear the binding on the HR92 (15 second press), and start over. It sounds to me like the original binding perhaps didn't complete successfully.

    The thing about info from your wireless LAN should be taken with a pinch of salt - the two things operate on completely different frequencies.
    tried this as well, still no joy

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by gcpeters View Post
    Hello!

    my first post to the forum, and im afraid its a problem - sigh..... So I have had the evo home system installed for about 4 months and then all of a sudden I noticed that I could not override the temperature in my study, for some reason it is just not calling for the heating to turn on. The installer came out but basically had to leave after 4 hrs and to be honest got really fed up with having to wait every 4 minute. He called up Honeywell who told him it was interference by the WLAN or the computer in the study - which it is not, as I have turned all this off to prove it... so I have a few questions...

    1) What is the actual message flow from the HR92 to make the heating turn on, for example...
    ---- Radiator valve has override set and opens the valve
    ---- Radiator valve sends packet / message to evohome controller - controller updates display showing new overridden temperature
    ---- Controller then sends packet/ message to the Heating Relay? Is there an ACK sent to the rad valve etc?
    ---- Heating relay turns opens valves, turns on pump, fires up boiler etc?

    are there any acknowledgements or messages sent between these processes? Do all the messages go to the evohome controller, and then this in turn sends the required message to the relay etc?? I have searched and searched for this but cant find the information

    2) In my scenario I have tested the radiator valve to the controller = 4/5 signal on all tests - it actually updates the value on the evohome controllers screen
    3) I have tested the evohome controller to the HR91 relay, 5 flashing red lights....
    4) I have used the phone app to change the value in the office, the evo home controller updates the display showing the new value, the new value gets sent to the radiator valve and is updated.
    5) The radiator valve can talk to the evohome controller (as proved in step 2), the evohome controller can talk to the HR91 (as proved in step 3).....
    5) ALL the other zones work fine, I can override them - heating turns on - I can use controller to change temp - heating turns on - I can use phone app - heating turns on.
    5) why oh why is it not working for the study zone!

    Any help really appreciated, its driving me nuts.. I have properly removed the binding, deleted the zone and rebound and STILL the same problem - I just don't get it... There are also no fault logs at all for COMMS etc etc!
    Checked zone lock settings? (ie manual local overide is not disabled - this is in the deep settings on evohome unit)
    getconnected.honeywell.com | I work for Honeywell. Any posts I make are purely to help if I can. Any personal views expressed are my own

  7. #7
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    I have experienced TRV's sticking, particularly if heating has been off for a while. Would suggest taking off HR92 head. Check and see if pin on the TRV will move. Have had to resort to giving pin a tap with a piece of wood to free it on occasion. With the TRV head off, you should be getting a full flow and radiator should heat up. If not, try opening the lock shield valve on the other side of the radiator.

    Hope you get it sorted soon.

  8. #8
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    Try swapping the unit, without changing setup, to different location to see if the issue follows the hardware or stays with the location. If it stays with location look for things that could corrupt the messages.
    If it stays with the zone, create a new zone with new name, bInd the hr92 to this, then delete the old zone. Let us know how you get on.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcpeters View Post
    1) What is the actual message flow from the HR92 to make the heating turn on, for example...
    ---- Radiator valve has override set and opens the valve
    ---- Radiator valve sends packet / message to evohome controller - controller updates display showing new overridden temperature
    ---- Controller then sends packet/ message to the Heating Relay? Is there an ACK sent to the rad valve etc?
    ---- Heating relay turns opens valves, turns on pump, fires up boiler etc?

    are there any acknowledgements or messages sent between these processes? Do all the messages go to the evohome controller, and then this in turn sends the required message to the relay etc?? I have searched and searched for this but cant find the information
    I don't think anyone except Honeywell knows the full details of the protocol as what is known is only reverse engineered, but the process is a little different to what you described, and it depends where you make the adjustment.

    If you adjust the temperature from your phone or the controller panel the communication process is:

    1) Set point updates on the controller display immediately, (or a few seconds if done by phone) but not on the HR92.
    2) At the next regular 4 minute communication window a set point change is sent to the HR92 in that zone. Until this time (up to 4 minutes) the HR92 remains on its previous set point and the heat demand to the BDR91 does not change.
    3) After the HR92 receives a new set point, if the change requires the valve to open or close partially or completely it will then do so. This could take up to 30 seconds to go from fully closed to fully open or visa versa.
    4) After the valve finishes moving the HR92 will send an updated "heat demand" message to the main controller.
    5) The controller aggregates the heat demand from all zones and sends one overall heat demand to the BDR91. The time between an HR92 changing its demand and it being sent to the BDR91 is typically no more than 3-4 seconds.

    If you adjust the temperature directly at the HR92 a slightly different communication process takes place:

    1) As soon as you turn the knob the device wakes up and will start moving the valve as required by the new set point.
    2) A few seconds after you turn the knob it will send a set-point change to the controller that will appear as a timed override. (Hour glass) This can take anywhere between a couple of seconds and 10 seconds I find.
    3) After the motor has finished moving it will send a new heat demand to the main controller as above
    4) The controller aggregates the heat demands of all HR92's and sends one overall heat demand to the BDR91.
    5) When the next 4 minute communication windows to that HR92 is reached the controller sends a set point change to the HR92 to change the local override on the HR92 to a scheduled set point. (The round local override icon on the HR92 will disappear)

    Some points to keep in mind:

    1) The heat demand information communicated from an HR92 to the controller is not directly related to either the set point or the measured temperature - it's most closely linked with how far open the valve is. For example for a 20 degree set point and 20 degree measured temperature it might require a heat demand of 10% to maintain this status quo in summer and 60% in winter. Same set point, same current measured temperature but in the latter case the radiator is running hot and demanding a lot of the boiler while in the former the radiator might be luke warm. So heat demand is a separate message to the controller than a set point change, in fact heat demand will vary all the time as it tries to keep the room temp steady.

    2) Heat demands are communicated from HR92 to Controller to BDR91 in under about 5 seconds, however that doesn't necessarily mean the relay will switch immediately due to it using TPI. If there is only a partial demand then the relay will only be on for a certain proportion of every 10 minute period - so a small change in demand won't have any immediate effect on the relay depending on what part of that 10 minute cycle you're currently on and how much the demand changes.

    So to test it you want all other zones turned right down, then adjust the HR92 in question to at least 3 degrees below the current temperature and 3 degrees above the current temperature to get the relay to switch immediately and test communication of the heat demand to the relay. If you only turn the HR92 up to say 1 degree above current temperature it might not switch for many minutes or possibly not at all depending on whether the demand is below your minimum on time setting.

    For the purposes of testing your problem I would do all your temperature adjustments directly on the HR92 - this will save you a lot of time as you will not be waiting 4 minutes every time for something to happen. If it's working properly then turning the HR92 up at least 2-3 degrees past the current temperature will result in the valve fully opening, then a few seconds after this the relay should go on.

    In addition to what others have suggested already, have you tried the following:

    * Make sure that the locking latch at the bottom of the HR92 is clicked securely into place. It won't send any heat demand if its not locked in place.
    * Remove the batteries from the HR92 and reinsert them. After it starts up press the button to get it to quickly resync with the controller.
    * Have you tried rebooting the controller ? Remove it from the dock and disconnect the batteries for a few seconds. After it boots up again you can speed up the resync process by pressing the button on each HR92

    If you're still stuck try the following which is about as thorough as I can think of:

    1) Unbind the HR92 by doing a short press followed by long, then when it says BIND do a long press until it says cleared. After that remove its batteries.
    2) Delete the zone in the controller entirely in the installer menu. Wait a couple of minutes then remove it from the dock and disconnect the batteries to reboot it as above.
    3) Reinsert the batteries in the HR92.
    4) Create a new zone and bind the HR92 as normal. Perhaps try using a different zone slot.

    Can't think of much else.
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 14th October 2016 at 12:15 PM.

  10. #10
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    There must be a reasonably robust two-way protocol that exists between the controller and an HR92 as the HR 92 receives and displays its assigned zone name, it reports current temperature and receives temperature demand from the controller all in an environment that could see any HR92 report information at any time, so not synchronised and doing all that requires the protocol to send and resend on-error and handle transmission clashes and so-on. I had in mind that Honeywell would have used an Opentherm protocol to make it consistent.

    There is a micro-controller board called the Arduino or the Raspberry Pi that have been programmed to receive the Opentherm protocols and there are Application Programming Interfaces (API) that enable some communications with the system, I've found this on the Honeywell Developers forum as examples of what can be obtained:

    GET Get an Authorization Code /authorize
    POST Create a Token from an Authorization Code /token
    POST Refresh a Token /token
    GET Get all devices for a location /devices
    POST Change Thermostat Settings /devices/thermostats/{deviceId}
    GET Get Thermostat /devices/thermostats/{deviceId}
    GET Get current fan settings /devices/thermostats/{deviceId}/fan
    POST Change fan setting for device /devices/thermostats/{deviceId}/fan
    GET Get all Devices by Type /devices/{deviceType}
    GET Get a Specific Device by ID /devices/{deviceType}/{deviceId}
    GET Get all Locations /locations
    GET Get temperature and humidity sensor history

    So if it was Opentherm compliant then we could establish things like determine zones, get and set temperatures and their history.

    The way into the device is therefore via the Wi-Fi network using HTML commands as above, which is relatively easy to do, when I get time I will programme an Arduino to seek information from the Evohome device ID and see what it returns.

    I postulate that Honeywell will have designed Evohome around an open-standard, but which one, and clearly they have because the Amazon Echo can communicate and control it and they (Amazon developers) know what it is!
    Last edited by g6ejd; 15th October 2016 at 09:13 AM.

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