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Thread: Ideal Vogue & Opentherm via Honeywell T6 Lyric (wired version)

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Robinson View Post
    I didn't relaid there was pump control parameters in the OT spec, but if there is, it would have next to no benefit in modern boilers, especially with their lightweight heat exchangers. Much better that the boiler looks after this. Although there are different methods. Linking to the burner is one and is equivalent to Δt to let intents and purpose. Δp is another.
    There isn't anything in the OT Spec Dan. Just like the Intergas, these parameters are how the boiler handles the pump when there is OT demand - just seems Ideal don't do it very well! This issue has got to be flow rate issues with Richard's system and obviously how the boiler handles initial firing of the appliance.

  2. #72
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    So it’s been escalated up very high now within ideal have my issues... today I got a call from the top guy in technical at ideal. He tells me there are 4 people currently having the same issues with Honeywell opentherm products on the ideal boilers. Basically he says that Honeywell have programmed the PCB’s for the boilers wrong and the software is controlling incorrectly. I’ve battled with this for nearly a year now but finally they agree that st present there is an incompatibility with ideal boilers on Honeywell opentherm controls. He said no such issues with the ideal opentherm controller.

    He said the issues they have noticed are, target temp not being reached again due to cycling, overshoot of target temperature due to too high a flow temp and cycling & the boiler off dial not turning the boiler off. Boiler is behaving worse than a standard on off boiler. House was sat at 20c at 7.30 this morning when set point was 22c, it had come on at 5am, flow temp was 45c and it was cycling on and off to get the rads hotter to 70c had to turn set point to 24c.

    Apparently as well the burner should be coming on at the low rate and then ramping up not the other way round. If for example requested flow temp is 60c then the requested flow rate goes to 40c the burner should not go off but ramp down to minimum and the system would naturally lose heat (minimum flow temp at minimum burner is about 30c.

    I asked if they are doing a recall as imagine how many other people are having the same issues and compensating by turning it up full. He said no recall in mind and they would be in touch in two weeks to come replace the pcb once they are in from Honeywell.
    Last edited by richardc1983; 27th October 2017 at 10:54 PM.

  3. #73
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    Copy of email sent to ideal to escalate due to lack of response.

    Please escalate this to management as a complaint, I have still had no acknowledgement or response to my email below sent on the 21st Sept followed by the 26th Sept. Iíve called numerous times in between and told itís been passed to the R&D team, this was a month ago and Iíve still not heard anything. Iíve asked a manager to call me back to no avail? Is anyone in charge, it doesnít seem so as no one does what they say they are going to do.

    This product is clearly not worth the price that I paid when I thought I was getting a premium product with top of the range control logic. Not to mention the equally poorly designed Honeywell Lyric of which I am told by Honeywell that Ideal worked with them when they designed it.

    As your aware this boiler was installed nearly a year ago now and has never worked as it should, your engineer who visited was also very unprofessional and didnít understand opentherm so what hope is there when your own service people donít know the technology inside the product and turn round and call it bu11sh!t! Perhaps you should be putting that terminology in your glossy product brochures when flogging your products as Iím sure customers would in their droves want a boiler with opentherm.

    The technical support has been shocking, as a facilities manager I am used to engineers and companies trying to fob us off commercially but itís evident the same is going on here.

    Please can someone update me by lunchtime Thursday 26th or I will be taking this further as your product is not doing as it should (see email below). You blame Honeywell and say that itís the lyric requesting the flame to be so high, yet they blame you and say itís the boiler doing what it sees fit. Why do you need the burner to come on at such a high rate when the flow temp requested by the T6 is 32c? Yet when you select ďservice mode min rateĒ you can maintain a flow temp of 30c WITHOUT cycling as the burner comes on at the lowest rate and doesnít put too much heat into the system to cause cycling.

    Perhaps you donít understand what Iím saying so Iíll try these analogyís, replace the mph with degrees Celsius.

    Analogy 1: You live next to a dual carriageway, you set off at 20mph & pull out onto a 70mph carriageway, you floor your foot on the gas in a controlled way to achieve 70mph speed asap as you need to get upto this speed quickly. Then once youíre at that speed you can level out and maintain that speed with just the right amount of pedal pressure on the gas.

    Analogy 2: You live next to a road that has a 30mph limit, you set off from stop, you floor your foot on the gas pedal causing wheel spins due to too much gas thus causing wasted energy and overshoot of speed.

    Analogy 3: You live next to a road that has a 30mph limit, you set off gently from stop with your foot gently on the gas and slowly bring the car upto that 30mph limit maintaining the speed nicely.

    Analogy 4: You want to achieve 30mph so you floor the gas pedal to achieve 30mph asap but you cause wheel spins and overshoot the speed to 40mph and because of this you take your foot off the gas and the car comes to a stop completely to which you then start Analogy 4 again...

    Do you see where I am going with this... itís exactly the same... your boiler is.

    Correctly using analogy 1 when system is starting from cold, it then follows analogy 2 adhering to the speed limits but then if it cycles off due to hot water demand or the thermostat has cycled off it then follows analogy 4 when it should be following analogy 3 to regulate the lower flow temp being requested. This is poor logic to have it cycling all the time you wouldnít drive your car this way as it would be seen as inefficient as well as not practical or comfortable.

    Iíve sent videos, Iíve sent detailed emails, phone calls and in short of sending the last will and testament can someone please respond with a resolution as this is not acceptable customer service. Iíve suggested the resolution and what I would like from this.

  4. #74
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    Richard - I can understand your frustration. Am I reading your post correctly in that Ideal is saying that this is a Honeywell/Honeywell problem given that Honeywell manufacture both Evohome and the boiler PCB? I appreciate that Honeywell is a huge organisation and I doubt that the two items are manufactured in the same country. When I looked at the Ideal Vogue, I recall asking whether the boiler was Opentherm compatible and the response was 'Yes'. That said, nowhere that I can find does it list Opentherm compatible devices. I had a similar concern about the Atag. The literature clearly states that the Atag iS is fully Opentherm capable but only the Atag One controller is listed.

    Is this not a case of 'caveat emptor'? I ask because I only went for the Opentherm solution knowing that I could revert back to non-Opentherm control if necessary. As it so happens, after a lengthy learning process, not helped by summer and no CH, the Atag is performing as I would expect with return flow temperatures in the mid 40s. Even with just HW selected, the boiler takes about 15 minutes to get to the max TSet temperature of 70C.

  5. #75
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    Ideal and Honeywell we’re passing the book to each other for the last year. Now the issue is the boiler PCB firmware or software is incorrectly programmed by Honeywell. It works fine apparently with ideals opentherm controller do not sure why the software would not let Honeywell’s controller to controller work properly. Surely it’s a standard language protocol.

  6. #76
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    Hi, Richard

    I am looking at Ideal Vogue S32 and using Evohome to replace my current system. I emailed Ideal Technical support re the S32 boiler and Evohome compatibility and they stated: As far as we are aware, there are currently minor compatibility issues with Honeywell controls, We have no known issues with any other units such as Hive, Nest controllers etc.
    We do have our own control unit called the Touch, this works on open-therm but is still in the development process and as of yet is not ‘internet ready’ although we aim to release this feature early next year.

    Which I find interesting, because as far as I'm aware Hive doesn't implement Opentherm. That aside, did you resolve the issues with modulating the S32 and evohome ?

  7. #77
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    I don’t have evohome I just use the lyric t6 as the main thermostat.

    Not resolved yet, ideal say they are still testing the newly reprogrammed pcb’s from Honeywell. What I don’t understand is why other opentherm controllers are working ok but Honeywell’s are not working ok, when the boiler firmware on the pcb will be the same. Ideal blame Honeywell for programming it wrong! Is there a diff firmware per controller that the boiler will use depending on what’s connected? You would think opentherm is the language so the commands and feedback would be the same.

  8. #78
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    Maybe, just maybe some OT controllers are designed to talk to a much wider range of boilers and in doing so employ some sort of fail safe I.e. Oh so Mr Boiler you didn't understand this, how about now? Where the Honeywell controller is so arrogant, that it just folds it's hands and tells the boiler, you can't understand me? Your loss.

  9. #79
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    Ideal have replied;

    I have spoken to our R&D team again on this query.

    From speaking to them it is apparent that Honeywell opentherm devices control both the flow temperature and the burner output, whereas most only operate the boilers flow temperature.

    This is causing the boiler operating mode to be overridden and hence the issue.

    I have again chased the PCB’s needed for your boiler today and am assured they will be with us very soon when I will be in touch again.

  10. #80
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    Can anyone with an OpenTherm gateway confirm this?

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