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Thread: Ideal Vogue & Opentherm via Honeywell T6 Lyric (wired version)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by The EVOHOME Shop View Post
    This is the same installer who has installed your receiver incorrectly though? Sounds like he hasn't bothered to research the technology first and then moaned after this has cost him money? Thankfully this shows a dying UK installer mentality and is not the mind-set of every installer in the UK, otherwise we would still be fitting gravity circulation and houses without thermostats.

    Opentherm is a great technology and has potential to do amazing things going forwards. There is no 'manual' for OpenTherm as it should just 'work' out of the box - OpenTherm Boiler + OpenTherm Thermostat = Perfection? Well, it would be if the boiler manufacturers stopped playing with the OpenTherm protocols.

    However, you must appreciate this is 'new' to the UK and we are currently behind our European brothers. I have learnt lots more this year about how OpenTherm works and should be implemented correctly. Also best practice for OpenTherm heating system design away from the design guides of 50 years ago.

    There are people out there who are very knowledgeable about heating design and OpenTherm (*cough*). From my experience, people who buy 'specialist' technology from the cheap online outlets then moan at the manufacturer when they don't get great support and backup at consumer level is typical.

    Our business tries to bridge this 'gap' but like flying a plane, it is something I would like to do but doesn't mean i should and a level of knowledge, training, experience and understanding is required.
    Yeah I know what your saying, I am on the way home now to double check the wiring as the electrician has already phoned and said the wire goes out through the back and up the wall.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by The EVOHOME Shop View Post
    This is the same installer who has installed your receiver incorrectly though? Sounds like he hasn't bothered to research the technology first and then moaned after this has cost him money? Thankfully this shows a dying UK installer mentality and is not the mind-set of every installer in the UK, otherwise we would still be fitting gravity circulation and houses without thermostats.

    Opentherm is a great technology and has potential to do amazing things going forwards. There is no 'manual' for OpenTherm as it should just 'work' out of the box - OpenTherm Boiler + OpenTherm Thermostat = Perfection? Well, it would be if the boiler manufacturers stopped playing with the OpenTherm protocols.

    However, you must appreciate this is 'new' to the UK and we are currently behind our European brothers. I have learnt lots more this year about how OpenTherm works and should be implemented correctly. Also best practice for OpenTherm heating system design away from the design guides of 50 years ago.

    There are people out there who are very knowledgeable about heating design and OpenTherm (*cough*). From my experience, people who buy 'specialist' technology from the cheap online outlets then moan at the manufacturer when they don't get great support and backup at consumer level is typical.

    Our business tries to bridge this 'gap' but like flying a plane, it is something I would like to do but doesn't mean i should and a level of knowledge, training, experience and understanding is required.
    Richard - I admire your enthusiasm but that is not my experience. I been in contact with three ecotechnicians. One, responded by saying that he has fitted many Evohome systems but he is not convinced that OT offers any benefits. Another, had installed many Opentherm-compatible boilers but didn't install Evohome but he was happy to do the install (at a price) and, the third, reported issues with Evohome, Opentherm and Intergas boilers. Opentherm might well be the way forward but it will never 'sell' if installers and boiler manufacturers don't push it. Having spoken to the support guys at Valliant, Viessmann, Atag and Intergas it has always taken them time to find the guy that understands the exam question. As you know, it's an 'no no' for Valliant UK, and the rest were honest enough to say that not all their installers had been through any form of Opentherm training.

  3. #23
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    Ok taken a picture at a diff angle - installer fitted it as per Honeywell instructions. Just my dodgy pictire angle.

    IMG_6306.jpg

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenGus View Post
    Richard - I admire your enthusiasm but that is not my experience. I been in contact with three ecotechnicians. One, responded by saying that he has fitted many Evohome systems but he is not convinced that OT offers any benefits. Another, had installed many Opentherm-compatible boilers but didn't install Evohome but he was happy to do the install (at a price) and, the third, reported issues with Evohome, Opentherm and Intergas boilers. Opentherm might well be the way forward but it will never 'sell' if installers and boiler manufacturers don't push it. Having spoken to the support guys at Valliant, Viessmann, Atag and Intergas it has always taken them time to find the guy that understands the exam question. As you know, it's an 'no no' for Valliant UK, and the rest were honest enough to say that not all their installers had been through any form of Opentherm training.
    Like I said in my previous comment, when the boiler manufacturers sort out their desire to damage the protocol and tarnish the OpenTherm name through their own lack of knowledge then we may get somewhere. I am interested very much in the 'complete package' but most boiler manufacturers just want to sell boilers and flues - the controls have always been secondary to them.

    I do find it ironic that in the Netherlands OpenTherm is law and even Vaillant themselves are not big enough to dodge the bullet, but in the UK they are actively going out of their way to stop progress by not selling the VR33. It is our own legislation that is not changing things here quick enough.

    I will keep pushing the OpenTherm technology as the innovator/early adopter I am - it has paid dividends for me so far and I know I am years ahead of the game. I am not looking for the easy solutions, I am looking for mass market solutions that change the way things are done for the better and OpenTherm is it.

    @richardc1983 I am glad the receiver is wired correctly - had me worried when I only saw 2 wires!

  5. #25
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    I think opentherm is fantastic but agree with you Richard it's only gonna be as good as to the original Honeywell language. Already ideal are looking into my own boiler issues because they limit the min flow temp to 45c previously it was 30c because some other opentherm thermostats were causing issues with pumps staying running or something. This was implemented via the pcb so not an easy thing to change. They are now looking at changing it to 30c again as this defeats the point of opentherm. The more you limit the modulation capacity on a capable boiler the more pointless opentherm becomes.

  6. #26
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    Hello everyone

    Just wanted to give an update following my conference call with Honeywell. They said that the T6 is fully capable of modulating down to 30C the problem is the boiler manufacturers limiting opentherm. Very impressed and thanks to Honeywell for arranging this conference call, not many companies offer that level of service these days.

    Its been fired back to Ideal now who have agreed about my problem and confirm the solution is to send an updated PCB out (not received yet) with the firmware re programmed to allow the opentherm to modulate down to 30C instead of the current limit of 45C.

  7. #27
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    UPDATE from Ideal regarding the boiler as they have just come back to me since my last post:

    Good Morning Richard.

    Sorry I haven’t had the chance to reply sooner. My colleague in R&D has been testing the Ideal Vogue and has deemed the Ideal Vogue will actually modulate down to temperatures as low as 30 degrees already.

    I apologise for the length in time this has taken and the initial incorrect answers given to me.

    I have included in this email a few of the key points taken from my correspondence with my colleague in R&D



    “Hello Paul,



    I have now configured a production board onto our test rig in the lab, I can see no reason why the set point should not already go down to 30 degrees



    The boiler controls the pump speed in central heating mode proportionally based upon the burner power, between a lower limit, set by the installer and maximum. This is one method of controlling pump speed that has been adopted by the Vogue boiler due to the nature of the heat exchanger.



    Most OpenTherm controls do not modulate CH pump speed so we decided not to allow this and leave it to the boiler to determine this setting. There are complex feedback systems already controlling temperature in boilers and another one controlling pump speed may cause very unstable behaviour, so we opted for the simple solution. It may well be in the future we will consider allowing pump speed control via OpenTherm once we are confident this will not cause any issues for the boiler.



    I have concluded that it will not make any difference to the operation of the system. The boiler does not appear to be the cause of the issue, I am awaiting a sample Lyric T6 controller from Honeywell so that I may investigate and identify the root cause of the issue

    Yes, we can accept a set point and modulate down to 30 degrees.”



    So to summarise what he is telling me he thinks as the boiler will already modulate down to 30c it is pointless reprogramming a PCB as this is already what it does.

    I have spoken to my manager about this who has agreed for me to send out a new PCB still but this will be practically the same board you already have. Only difference being it will come with a BCC which will be needed to be placed on the PCB to programme the board.

    If this new pcb doesn’t solve the situation the problem must be external to the boiler like my collegue in R&D suggests.

    I will arrange the PCB being sent to your property after this email and you should receive it by the end of the week.



    I thank you for your patience and I hope you do get the situation resolved .



    With kind regards



    Paul Griffith

  8. #28
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    I have responded with:

    Hi Paul


    Thank you for below email. Understand the points around pump modulation but Honeywell's open-therm protocol has been controlling pump speed since the early days so I am sure they have this off to a tee. It seems the issue is laying when manufacturers are messing with this protocol and bringing in "simpler" controls as your then limiting what the controller can do. It's a shame we have gone back to the beginning then of not knowing where the problem lays. The boiler does not modulate down any lower than 45/46C, it doesn't matter what the maximum flow temp is set at, any lower than 45C and the boiler will cycle off. I have never seen it any lower. This leads to my bathroom radiator being half cold most of the time as it needs constant water circulation through it and because the system is cycling off as its not modulating any lower this is the reason it is cold.


    Unsure as to why they have said that it was set at 45C and then have now changed their minds. Can we verify that the new board has that value of 30C set in the firmware by the R&D guy? I guess this then leaves the issue if it isn't modulating down to resolve with Honeywell directly as I have spent a considerable amount of my own time with their top tech guys and they say the T6 is fully capable of modulating down to 30C and that it is limited in the boiler firmware. Its as if the boiler is telling the T6 it cant go any lower than 30C as the low load control seems to kick in and is displayed in the T6 thermostat even when low load control is turned off on the T6 you still see low load control active from time to time. Whether this is the boilers low load control kicking in or a bug in the T6 I don't know but there is some conflict. The only thing external to the boiler is the T6. The outside sensor is disconnected.


    I have copied in Honeywell as I think they need to have some input on this also as from our conference call they were adamant there is no issue with the T6 and the way it controls. Low load control is described by Honeywell at the below which seems to be the behaviour we are seeing as it won't go below 45C.


    http://getconnected.honeywell.com/en...ct_Spec_EN.pdf

    If the Receiver box is connected to an OpenTherm appliance this setting is used in the demand control. When an appliance is no longer able to modulate lower the control switches from modulating control to low/off control.

    It may be worth you sending this onto your R&D guy Paul; I look forward to hearing from you soon.

  9. #29
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    I didn't know OpenTherm allowed pump speed to be specified - I thought it was just concerned with the flow temp.

    You learn something new every day.

    But what happens with the (many) installations where the pump is external to the boiler?

    P.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulockenden View Post
    I didn't know OpenTherm allowed pump speed to be specified - I thought it was just concerned with the flow temp.

    You learn something new every day.

    But what happens with the (many) installations where the pump is external to the boiler?

    P.
    Yeah from my conference call with Honeywell that is a value that it can control if allowed on the boiler. I guess if the pump is external to the boiler that will not take place.

    Ideal are saying now that its my responsibility to take up with honeywell if the new PCB doesn't change things. Rubbish, not my responsibility to sort out a control issue on a premium boiler. If it has opentherm on it then it needs to perform to that standard its not up to me to sort.

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