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Thread: Ideal Vogue & Opentherm via Honeywell T6 Lyric (wired version)

  1. #31
    Automated Home Legend paulockenden's Avatar
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    I realise this is a side issue, but I'm struggling to see the logic of allowing OpenTherm to control the pump speed.

    Surely on a boiler with an integral pump, the boiler knows best what pump speed is needed in order to maintain a given flow rate? The thermostat simply needs to say "I need flow at 48 degrees" or whatever.

    What leads you to believe that control of pump speed is an issue here?

    I reckon, PERHAPS, although the boiler can modulate down to 30 degrees, maybe it's reporting back across opentherm that it'll only go down to 45. Which then forces the Lyric into "low load" mode below that value.

    So perhaps the bug isn't what it can do, rather what it SAYS it can do.

    You'd need something like this to debug what's going in.

    But can't help wondering whether the pump speed thing is a red herring.

    P.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulockenden View Post
    I realise this is a side issue, but I'm struggling to see the logic of allowing OpenTherm to control the pump speed.

    Surely on a boiler with an integral pump, the boiler knows best what pump speed is needed in order to maintain a given flow rate? The thermostat simply needs to say "I need flow at 48 degrees" or whatever.

    What leads you to believe that control of pump speed is an issue here?

    I reckon, PERHAPS, although the boiler can modulate down to 30 degrees, maybe it's reporting back across opentherm that it'll only go down to 45. Which then forces the Lyric into "low load" mode below that value.

    So perhaps the bug isn't what it can do, rather what it SAYS it can do.

    You'd need something like this to debug what's going in.

    But can't help wondering whether the pump speed thing is a red herring.

    P.
    Your possibly right, the boiler knows what it needs to do. Ideal are saying the boiler should be saying it can go down to 30C but we know this isnt happening as the boiler is cutting out at 45C and low load control shows up even though it is turned off in the lyric.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardc1983 View Post
    Your possibly right, the boiler knows what it needs to do. Ideal are saying the boiler should be saying it can go down to 30C but we know this isnt happening as the boiler is cutting out at 45C and low load control shows up even though it is turned off in the lyric.
    I wish someone from Honeywell would comment as it makes Evohome/Opentherm something of a non starter if the two key components are connected but not communicating properly. It makes me wonder whether Evohome will work as Honeywell intended with an Ideal boiler?

  4. #34
    Automated Home Legend paulockenden's Avatar
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    If you're handy with a soldering iron, another option is https://www.kiwi-electronics.nl/opentherm-gateway-kit

    Which is the hardware for http://otgw.tclcode.com/otmonitor.html

    P.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenGus View Post
    I wish someone from Honeywell would comment as it makes Evohome/Opentherm something of a non starter if the two key components are connected but not communicating properly. It makes me wonder whether Evohome will work as Honeywell intended with an Ideal boiler?
    Ideals emails today:



    Hi Richard



    The PCB is being delivered to this address already as this is where the boiler has been registered to.

    We are trying to resolve the only potential cause of the issue from our side of things. If this does not resolve the issue then this cannot be the boiler at fault so we would not be able to assist any further.

    I have done all that I can on this by getting you a new PCB and BCC.

    Hopefully this should resolve matters

    Paul Griffith

    Installer Support Team

    -------------------------------------------------------

    HI Richard



    The R&D team have stated the boiler will modulate down to the set point of 30 degrees.

    The query was taken to the highest person in R&D who tested a Vogue boiler on a rig and found that it will operate at 30c.

    They are confident it is not the boiler at fault however I spoke with my manager and we are willing to give you a PCB still as we promised.

    I have ordered up a new PCB and BCC which should be with you by the end of the week.



    Hopefully the new PCB and Bcc will resolve this as this is the only component in the boiler that could potentially cause the issue, however it is more likely to be an external factor.

    If this does not resolve the problem then I’m afraid It would be an issue you need to pursue with Honeywell or your heating engineer.





    Paul Griffith

    Installer Support Team

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulockenden View Post
    I realise this is a side issue, but I'm struggling to see the logic of allowing OpenTherm to control the pump speed.

    Surely on a boiler with an integral pump, the boiler knows best what pump speed is needed in order to maintain a given flow rate? The thermostat simply needs to say "I need flow at 48 degrees" or whatever.
    I was thinking the EXACT same thing before I turned the page and saw your reply...

    I can't see how an OpenTherm controller like an Evohome could have the knowledge or visibility into the situation in the boiler it would need to make a meaningful decision on the pump speed - the boiler itself (with an integrated pump) is best placed to make this determination. If the Evohome was allowed to do this there is too much chance of it making a bad decision as it doesn't know enough about the properties of the boiler.

    Although OpenTherm may provide the option to specify a pump speed I think it's value may be marginal. All you really want is OpenTherm to say "boiler on please, provide a flow temperature of 45 degrees" and then it's the responsibility of the boiler to do whatever it sees fit to achieve that target, including modulating the burner, cycling the burner off temporarily if it can't modulate low enough, adjusting the pump speed to be optimal based on the flow temperature and hydraulic resistance of the open radiators etc... Like you I don't see what allowing the Evohome to dictate pump speed would gain, and more than likely it would be a retrograde step.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenGus View Post
    I wish someone from Honeywell would comment as it makes Evohome/Opentherm something of a non starter if the two key components are connected but not communicating properly. It makes me wonder whether Evohome will work as Honeywell intended with an Ideal boiler?

    I asked Ideal Technical for advice about the Vogue and Opentherm and I got this response:

    Quote: You are able to connect the Honeywell Evo home multi-zoning control via the Open therm connection or you are able to use it on the switched live in .

    The boiler is a system boiler and is unable to prioritise a call for dwh. unquote

    I am not sure that I understand the response to my query about DWH priority. I have had two installers of rival system boilers tell me that when DWH is required, CH can be isolated, and the boiler will react with max set temp, or if the basic 'S' plan is left as it is, then when DHW is required, the boiler will just pump max temp water around both CH and HW.

    My question wasn't really about the connection it was more about the boiler coping with multi-zoning demands.

  8. #38
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    New PCB arrived and was fitted. Does exactly the same, wont ramp down below 45C when the request for heat comes through from the T6 you can see the flow temp is at 38C but then within a few minutes its upto 45C and above until the thermostat cycles off.

  9. #39

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    Rich

    (forgive me if I get terms wrong - not my forte) Here is a chart I have taken at random from some of our test sites with Opentherm. You can see our systems do allow for modulation down to lower levels. The Honeywell interface will operate to the limitations of the boiler. I am told that each boiler vendor has different threshold where the low load transitions to on/off. I dont know what the threshold for Ideal is. The example I show is an Integras boiler for example.

    26degrees.jpg
    getconnected.honeywell.com | I work for Honeywell. Any posts I make are purely to help if I can. Any personal views expressed are my own

  10. #40
    Automated Home Legend paulockenden's Avatar
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    Without an openthem monitor in the middle (see links above) it's going to be impossible to determine on which side the fault lies.

    Hopefully Ideal will obtain a T6 and have a play.

    Although having said that, in real-world operation I wonder how many people really need flow temps below 45 degrees.

    Oh, just a thought - what you're seeing this problem do you have radiators opened up enough to allow the (probably) pretty high flow rate needed to keep the temp of a firing boiler this low, even with the burner turned right down. If your rads are only partly open you'll get a restricted flow which will then cause heat build-up.

    P.

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