Help with Evohome / Opentherm / Intergas

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  • paulockenden
    Automated Home Legend
    • Apr 2015
    • 1719

    #61
    Originally posted by blowlamp View Post
    What isn't normal (for me) under OpenTherm is persistant demand at full CH output for 'topping-up' lost heat where a lower flame height would suffice.
    Don't forget that the proportional band is only 1.5 degrees. Any zone further out than that and the boiler will be going full-pelt.

    Maybe the band needs to be wider when under OpenTherm control?

    Comment

    • fergie
      Automated Home Sr Member
      • Mar 2017
      • 92

      #62
      Is it possible but under OT the boilers are *supposed* to surrender full control, but the Atag (which I deliberately went for) valiant simply don't?

      Under one zone the evohome acts like a normal controller and only calls for x about of heat, but under multizones it maybe calls for x+y which is more than the safe limits? If that were the case though, surely the fix would be a software update in evohome so that multizone gives the same signal as single zone?

      Like Hengas, I haven't had a winter with my boiler yet, but when I watch water only it seems to gradually build up- not go full pelt from the go. Again with a heat demand it seems to build in s controlled manner. I guess I won't know for sure though until winter and there is a call for heat from 10 rooms at once.

      Comment

      • HenGus
        Automated Home Legend
        • May 2014
        • 1001

        #63
        Clearly, the one thing that is a given is Evohome. The variables that lead to varying outcomes are different boilers and interfaces. At this point, I declare an almost complete lack of detailed technical knowledge; however, a simple read of the OT/OT+ specification shows that all the parameters (IDs) passed from controller to boiler are not mandatory. Logic would suggest that if Evohome demands 90C for DHW heating, and the boiler spends back an 'invalid ID' response then the boiler will just do its own thing based on the set profile and user settings. Out of interest, has anyone found the Opentherm logo on any Evohome device or interface? Come to think of it, my boiler doesn't show the logo either.

        Comment

        • blowlamp
          Automated Home Sr Member
          • Apr 2017
          • 98

          #64
          Originally posted by HenGus View Post
          Clearly, the one thing that is a given is Evohome. The variables that lead to varying outcomes are different boilers and interfaces. At this point, I declare an almost complete lack of detailed technical knowledge; however, a simple read of the OT/OT+ specification shows that all the parameters (IDs) passed from controller to boiler are not mandatory. Logic would suggest that if Evohome demands 90C for DHW heating, and the boiler spends back an 'invalid ID' response then the boiler will just do its own thing based on the set profile and user settings. Out of interest, has anyone found the Opentherm logo on any Evohome device or interface? Come to think of it, my boiler doesn't show the logo either.

          Not Evohome, but from the Remeha manual.

          Capture.JPG

          Comment

          • HenGus
            Automated Home Legend
            • May 2014
            • 1001

            #65
            Getting back to Evohome and Opentherm. There is a recent comment on the Domoticz forum:

            Thanks for raising the issue of the OT module. I really need to update the wiki to list Evohome devices which are only partially implemented. The code still doesn't really handle the OT module correctly and gets confused by all the different boiler demand messages and you end up with multiple boiler relays.

            Might this explain the Intergas/Opentherm issue?

            Comment

            • paulockenden
              Automated Home Legend
              • Apr 2015
              • 1719

              #66
              Originally posted by HenGus View Post
              Might this explain the Intergas/Opentherm issue?
              Doubt it - this is talking about traffic from the other side of the bridge.

              P.

              Comment

              • dty
                Automated Home Ninja
                • Aug 2016
                • 489

                #67
                Originally posted by HenGus View Post
                Getting back to Evohome and Opentherm. There is a recent comment on the Domoticz forum:

                Thanks for raising the issue of the OT module. I really need to update the wiki to list Evohome devices which are only partially implemented. The code still doesn't really handle the OT module correctly and gets confused by all the different boiler demand messages and you end up with multiple boiler relays.

                Might this explain the Intergas/Opentherm issue?
                As Paul says, that's nothing to do with the boiler. That's Domoticz understanding the OT messages produced by the HGI80.

                DanD and I are still working (very slowing) in the background on that. I think Dan is waiting for me to capture him some OT messages which I can't right now because none of the custom firmware for non-HGI devices (including my firmware) can cope with the messages - there's something slightly different about them that I need to explore.

                But again, that thread is talking about the radio messages between the controller and the OT bridge.

                Comment

                • HenGus
                  Automated Home Legend
                  • May 2014
                  • 1001

                  #68
                  Originally posted by dty View Post
                  As Paul says, that's nothing to do with the boiler. That's Domoticz understanding the OT messages produced by the HGI80.

                  DanD and I are still working (very slowing) in the background on that. I think Dan is waiting for me to capture him some OT messages which I can't right now because none of the custom firmware for non-HGI devices (including my firmware) can cope with the messages - there's something slightly different about them that I need to explore.

                  But again, that thread is talking about the radio messages between the controller and the OT bridge.
                  Thanks. Excuse my lack of knowledge, but how do the messages produced by the HGI80 differ from the messages produced by the Opentherm Bridge?

                  Comment

                  • dty
                    Automated Home Ninja
                    • Aug 2016
                    • 489

                    #69
                    Originally posted by HenGus View Post
                    Thanks. Excuse my lack of knowledge, but how do the messages produced by the HGI80 differ from the messages produced by the Opentherm Bridge?
                    Evohome uses a proprietary radio protocol to communicate between all its components. (You know this!)

                    The OpenTherm Bridge receives instructions and information from the controller and converts it to the OpenTherm protocol to send down the pair of wires to the boiler. Details of the OT protocol are publicly available.

                    The HGI80 (and similar hackalikes) listens to all the Evohome radio traffic and produces one line of text on its USB port in a particular format for each message received. It needs to understand the physical details of the messages (radio frequency, encoding, etc.), but not what each message means.

                    Domoticz can read these lines and interpret them into things like zones, temperatures, demand, etc., but since the protocol details are not in the public domain, it takes a dedicated bunch of people like Dan to try and make sense of each line coming out of the HGI80.

                    Comment

                    • the crooner
                      Automated Home Jr Member
                      • Jun 2017
                      • 33

                      #70
                      Just to close my input into this thread and to thank folk for the useful information.

                      We are going to keep the existing boiler until it dies, have installed a megaflow 210 unvented tank and implement a full Evohome system with 11 rads and hot water. Since we obtained the cylinder from clearance I'm not yet sure what type of thermostat pocket it has but whatever I'm sure we can overcome that. Will keep the existing motorised valve and control via Evohome and install the supplied new valve controlled by the existing tank therm/cutout circuitry.

                      We will get an opentherm boiler when the current one expires. Hopefully by then all the opentherm compatibility issues will be resolved.

                      Thanks again

                      Tony

                      Comment

                      • DBMandrake
                        Automated Home Legend
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 2361

                        #71
                        Originally posted by paulockenden View Post
                        Don't forget that the proportional band is only 1.5 degrees. Any zone further out than that and the boiler will be going full-pelt.
                        I have to wonder if a common(ish) cause of this is having a zone with an undersized radiator or an over optimistic set point. If the radiator is not physically capable of reaching the set point or can only barely reach it with the radiator going full pelt it would result in a permanent ongoing "maximum heat" demand from the boiler.

                        Our hallway is a bit like that - in the middle of winter it struggles to reach a real (measured with a remote sensor) 20 degrees, so I schedule it to 19 degrees instead. Otherwise the boiler is going flat out to achieve the un-achievable, and never drops below maximum demand.

                        Comment

                        • fergie
                          Automated Home Sr Member
                          • Mar 2017
                          • 92

                          #72
                          That sounds almost identical to my tank(albeit 10y old) - which is working very well with the HW control. I'm in a S plan.

                          Comment

                          • the crooner
                            Automated Home Jr Member
                            • Jun 2017
                            • 33

                            #73
                            Think we will be. 2 x motirised valves, not the unreliable 3 way one.

                            Comment

                            • mtmcgavock
                              Automated Home Legend
                              • Mar 2017
                              • 507

                              #74
                              You can't have a 3 port valve on a unvented cylinder anyway, so you'd have to either have, 2* 2 Port Motorised valves or a 3 port and a 2 port after that one. The latter is a nightmare to wire and a stupid way of doing things.

                              Comment

                              • The EVOHOME Shop
                                Site Sponsor
                                • Dec 2014
                                • 483

                                #75
                                Originally posted by mtmcgavock View Post
                                You can't have a 3 port valve on a unvented cylinder anyway, so you'd have to either have, 2* 2 Port Motorised valves or a 3 port and a 2 port after that one. The latter is a nightmare to wire and a stupid way of doing things.
                                This is not entirely true.

                                G3 regulations don't actually state you need a 2 port valve. What the regs say is that the heat demand to the coil needs to be removed when there is a high limit situation. This can actually be achieved by rotating a 3 port valve 180 degrees so the closed port is on the hot water side instead of heating. It is loosely called 'D-Plan' after Dan from Jennings Heating who came up with the idea (although others claim they were doing it earlier).

                                I actually prefer hot water priority with a 'inverted' 3 port diverter valve - works much better with OpenTherm and evohome.

                                As for OpenTherm, evohome and Intergas... I have all 3 things working just perfect in our training facility! 👍🏻

                                Comment

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