Help with Evohome / Opentherm / Intergas

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  • fergie
    Automated Home Sr Member
    • Mar 2017
    • 92

    #31
    It ultimately comes down to how much you want to use OT or whether you are happy for the boiler to do everything itself?

    For me I was adamant I wanted OT so I specced the boiler to match. Ideally I would have gone for the Intergas as well, but eventually they admitted all the issues that have been mentioned before. My understanding is the only solution would be for intergas to change the pcb.

    I went for an Atag iS32 and the difference in fully installed price was £500 more than the equivalent intergas eco RF. That was also with a more expensive fitter, but he definitely knew his stuff and did include 10y warranty.

    Comment

    • HenGus
      Automated Home Legend
      • May 2014
      • 1001

      #32
      Slightly off topic - sorry. If you are really lucky and your Atag installer needs a missing part, then the man from Atag pitches up in his van with the built in Atag boiler. Apparently, he is a very keen mountain biker and has connected the boiler to a portable shower which he uses in the car park before driving home.

      Comment

      • the crooner
        Automated Home Jr Member
        • Jun 2017
        • 33

        #33
        I did it for you.

        I sent this to Intergas on 26 June:

        Hello

        I am considering the purchase or the ECO RF 36 combi boiler.

        Will you please confirm that this will operate as intended with Honeywell Evohome in particular the Honeywell R8810A1018 Wireless OpenTherm Bridge R8810.

        Thank you.

        Tony

        Guess what reply I received?

        Comment

        • HenGus
          Automated Home Legend
          • May 2014
          • 1001

          #34
          Originally posted by the crooner View Post
          I did it for you.

          I sent this to Intergas on 26 June:

          Hello

          I am considering the purchase or the ECO RF 36 combi boiler.

          Will you please confirm that this will operate as intended with Honeywell Evohome in particular the Honeywell R8810A1018 Wireless OpenTherm Bridge R8810.

          Thank you.

          Tony

          Guess what reply I received?
          I suspect that they may have given you a reply along the lines that last year they had met with Honeywell and tested Evohome with Opentherm on the RF Eco. It was only went I spoke to their Opentherm expert - armed with information from one of their installers - that Intergas UK admitted that it was aware of the multi-zoning demand issue and this had been referred back to Intergas Netherlands for advice/resolution. That, I think is where matters stand. As many have posted on this forum, Evohome can talk to many boilers via Opentherm: sadly, not all of them respond to that discussion as they should. My concern about choosing a boiler that might or might not work with Opentherm is liability if Evohome over-rides the built in the boiler's max flow temperature protection.

          Comment

          • the crooner
            Automated Home Jr Member
            • Jun 2017
            • 33

            #35
            I understand what you are saying thank you. Its pretty poor design though if an external electronic control overrides a safety protection in a boiler.

            I wont buy Intergas because they wont talk to me. I emailed Vaiilant in Germany asking whether opentherm will be supported in the UK after the UK helpfully told me that its not supported end of. I guess that rules out Vaillant.

            So I am left with Atag, or bin opentherm altogether and go with Worcester Bosch. There's a well respected installer in the next village.

            But thoughts have also turned to keeping the existing boiler and S plan and buying a vented mains pressure thermal store like the Advance or Boilermate.

            If anyone has any feedback on this I'd be grateful. Its clearly the cheapest option now, and if the boiler dies in a few years, again relatively cheap to replace it.

            Tony

            Comment

            • HenGus
              Automated Home Legend
              • May 2014
              • 1001

              #36
              I wouldn't give up all together. This is the reply that I got from Intergas in December:

              Quote: There is no resolution date for the issue with the Eco PCB at present, we are still awaiting any news on that sorry.

              We have no release date for the Extreme boilers but I have been assured that they will be opentherm compatible. As soon as we have a release date for these boilers we will let everyone know.

              Regards

              Steve Merry
              Technical Support Engineer

              Unquote

              Comment

              • fergie
                Automated Home Sr Member
                • Mar 2017
                • 92

                #37
                The release of the new intergas boilers keeps going further and further back. I was in exactly the same position and ended up going for the Atag as it simply works as it should with multizone OT.

                Valiant may be slightly cheaper, but I didn't fancy the hassle of needing extra buses and the risk I've got no formal support if it goes wrong.

                Comment

                • the crooner
                  Automated Home Jr Member
                  • Jun 2017
                  • 33

                  #38
                  Originally posted by fergie View Post
                  The release of the new intergas boilers keeps going further and further back. I was in exactly the same position and ended up going for the Atag as it simply works as it should with multizone OT.

                  Valiant may be slightly cheaper, but I didn't fancy the hassle of needing extra buses and the risk I've got no formal support if it goes wrong.
                  Thanks for this.

                  Do the Atag controls for setting boiler temperature still work with OT, or does OT override everything on the front panel?

                  Comment

                  • HenGus
                    Automated Home Legend
                    • May 2014
                    • 1001

                    #39
                    Originally posted by the crooner View Post
                    Thanks for this.

                    Do the Atag controls for setting boiler temperature still work with OT, or does OT override everything on the front panel?
                    When HW or CH is demanded (with a large zone temperature variation) the boiler flow maximum temperature is controlled by the boiler. For example, I have a profile set with a max boiler flow temperature of 70C. I have seen a slight over-run of 2 or 3 degrees but I have never seen the any exceedance of the TSet 70C target which is part of the 70C profile. When all the zones are close to their target temperatures, the boiler flow temperature starts to fall towards the condensing range. In sum, the front panel works as it should on the Atag Is24 boiler. That said, as I haven't run the boiler through a Winter period, I have yet to see the boiler in full condensing mode for a protracted period. The Evohome logic is based on getting all zones up to heat. It follows that max condensing efficiency may well be achieved by not having zones chop and change temperatures too often. For example, if a child goes up to their bedroom, say, mid afternoon and cranks up the HR92 by 5C, then the boiler will immediately crank up to 70C in my case until the new temperature is achieved. That said, it will not be at 70C for long.

                    I also have my HW and CH separate from each other. Opening the HW valve closes the CH valve.

                    Comment

                    • blowlamp
                      Automated Home Sr Member
                      • Apr 2017
                      • 98

                      #40
                      How many boilers are properly compatible with Evohome when used in its OpenTherm configuration?
                      From what I've seen here, none are truly working correctly and that includes Atag as well as Ideal, Vaillant, Intergas & Veissmann.

                      Dan Robinson (an Intergas specialist installer), has said on another forum that multi-zone Intergas/Evohome doesn't modulate. Now does that mean the boiler only operates at one flame setting, or does it mean it doesn't modulate in the way he would expect it to? This begs the question of how Intergas/Evohome/OpenTherm performs when set up as a single zone?

                      Evohome is a kind of hybrid TPI/Modulating setup where OpenTherm is used and I think it shows in the higher (non-condensing) flow temperatures over long periods of time - this being the very thing OpenTherm was designed to prevent. We know the idea of OpenTherm is to keep flow temperatures as low as possible for as long as possible and I've yet to see an instance reported of this actually happening with Evohome.


                      Martin.
                      Last edited by blowlamp; 2 July 2017, 04:57 PM.

                      Comment

                      • paulockenden
                        Automated Home Legend
                        • Apr 2015
                        • 1719

                        #41
                        I don't understand this single/multiple zone thing with Intergas. The boiler doesn't KNOW how many zones there are. It's simply getting an aggregated heat demand from the controller.

                        Some have speculated that with multiple zones there might be more data coming in for the boiler to deal with, but again, I don't get that. Evohome is sending an aggregated value with is for the whole house. You could easily get MORE variation from a single zone control if it's sited next to a doorway, for example.

                        And even if there IS more data even the most badly designed logic board should be able to cope. Easily.

                        There's something really strange about this excuse that it can't cope with multiple zones.

                        Comment

                        • HenGus
                          Automated Home Legend
                          • May 2014
                          • 1001

                          #42
                          Originally posted by blowlamp View Post
                          How many boilers are properly compatible with Evohome when used in its OpenTherm configuration?
                          From what I've seen here, none are truly working correctly and that includes Atag as well as Ideal, Vaillant, Intergas & Veissmann.

                          .
                          I would disagree with the assertion that the Atag IS/IC range isn’t compatible with Evohome/Opentherm. I have seen the boiler flow temperature as low as 50c with CH on. It just takes time to get there and I believe that the ‘fault’ was more to do with my zone timings/temps. Given that the boiler was only installed in April, the weather conditions have never needed full time boiler operation. I know that others have experience of Opentherm operation with other boilers over a longer period and may be able to comment further.

                          This is what was said when I was last in contact with an Intergas installer:

                          Quote: The problem is that the boiler or Evohome (no one really knows which at the moment) doesn't cope with modulating the setpoint with multiple zones.

                          My theory is that there is too much data and the boiler PCB can't interact quickly enough with the OpenTherm bridge so it drops its knickers and runs at whatever the maximum setting is. Unquote


                          Read more: https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/i...#ixzz4lh9XvW9v
                          Last edited by HenGus; 2 July 2017, 06:08 PM.

                          Comment

                          • blowlamp
                            Automated Home Sr Member
                            • Apr 2017
                            • 98

                            #43
                            I agree with paulockenden about the boiler being oblivious to the number of zones - in fact I agree with his whole post. His thoughts were my thoughts when I mused about how Intergas/Evohome/OpenTherm would function with a single zone setup. My thinking being that if modulation were to happen under a single zone, then that might point to Evohome being the culprit.

                            I'm just trying to bring a perspective outside of Evohome when a boiler is hooked-up to an Opentherm controller. My experience is that Intergas/OpenTherm, along with a controller from a competitor boiler manufacturer is working and has been working for nearly two years and in a 'textbook' fashion.

                            With regard to boiler/Evohome/OpenTherm compatability, my point is that Evohome seems to be 'missing the mark' in some way, with just about all the boilers the average person can lay his hands on

                            Unless your radiators are quite moderately specified then 50c flow temperatures (at what set/outside temperature?) in springtime should, in my experience, probably be lower under OpenTherm control and it shouldn't take long for your boiler to reach the condensing phase of its operation and remain there. I think the Intergas can control flow temperatures down into the mid twenties under OpenTherm.



                            Martin.

                            Comment

                            • bruce_miranda
                              Automated Home Legend
                              • Jul 2014
                              • 2307

                              #44
                              I too have thought that people have confused Evohome multiple zones and the Intergas boiler max limit issue as being linked. The only link I can see is that in a multi zone system you may have many zones outside of the proportional band at different times. We know that even a single zone outside will make the Evohome OT bridge run the boiler at max. Now layer on that the fact that Intergas max means boiler physical max and then suddenly you have a boiler that is running too hot for too long. That doesn't happen when using a single zone OT controller.

                              Comment

                              • HenGus
                                Automated Home Legend
                                • May 2014
                                • 1001

                                #45
                                Originally posted by bruce_miranda View Post
                                I too have thought that people have confused Evohome multiple zones and the Intergas boiler max limit issue as being linked. The only link I can see is that in a multi zone system you may have many zones outside of the proportional band at different times. We know that even a single zone outside will make the Evohome OT bridge run the boiler at max. Now layer on that the fact that Intergas max means boiler physical max and then suddenly you have a boiler that is running too hot for too long. That doesn't happen when using a single zone OT controller.
                                This is why my installer suggested that maximum efficiency can be achieved by restricting the number of changes to set temps in zones; ie, get them all up to temperature and leaving them there and by avoiding cold spots in adjacent rooms.

                                It is interesting that Honeywell has been totally silent on this issue to date.

                                Comment

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