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Thread: Help with Evohome / Opentherm / Intergas

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBMandrake View Post
    How exactly would an unvented cylinder overheat to the point of dangerous pressure release when heated by a closed loop to a boiler ? It can't get any hotter than the flow temperature of the boiler - which unless the boiler is faulty, is going to be under 90 degrees. (So now you have two separate devices failing at once to cause a problem, and that's pretty hard to protect against)

    From an electric element its possible, yes, because the electric element can reach several hundred degrees...
    It wouldn't, unless like you state your boiler stat failed. I agree it's highly unlikely that you are going to get more than one safety device failing at once.

    The above particular situations, the Viessmann one hadn't discharged. The one with the 3 port valve I'm not quite sure what had happened in that situation regarding the discharge - but it had been discharging.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtmcgavock View Post
    So when you've fitted the reserved 3 port, what happens when someone else, who isn't the original installer comes along when the valve has failed and says this hasn't been fitted correctly (Not aware of the situation). He then puts it on the right way round and leaves it - your are opening a can of worms.
    Customers are more intelligent than you give them credit for (or certainly that's my experience of being in the trade and dealing with 1000's of customers through our multiple businesses) - tell them this is what you have done and that they can contact the installer if they need any further information. I personally have always left plans of my heating system design with the customer and this removes possible conflicts in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtmcgavock View Post
    I've seen many situations where a 3 port valve has been fitted to a unvented cylinder where the high limit stat has cut out and heat still being transferred. On one particular occasion where a Worcester had been fitted with a pump over run and no bypass so it was pumping the heat round the cylinder. On this one it was discharging at a considerable rate, should that T&P failed it could have lead to a serious problem.
    This is nonsense. A 3 port valve fitted 'correctly' as you say would pass water to the unvented cylinder without a 2 port valve... Things naturally fail that's why there are multiple safety systems that should be checked annually.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtmcgavock View Post
    Another occasion where a Viessmann boiler with internal diverter had been fitted, the temperature sensor had fallen out and the HW left on constant. Resulted in the cylinder overheating with no thermal cut off. Had a 2 port valve been fitted following the manufacturers instructions it would have prevented this.
    Above 88 degrees from the boiler? I would imagine it was hot but still not dangerous - you are making excuses now.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtmcgavock View Post
    Whilst I agree it is very unlikely a deadly situation could occur as a number of components in the chain would have to fail, starting to deviate from the manufactures instructions shouldn't occur. The regulations are there, but the manufactures instructions should be followed. If you had an issue down the line they'd be very quick to say it wasn't fitted correctly. As gas safe always state with gas appliances, always follow the manufactures instructions.
    Most manufacturers would be happy using a 3 port valve in the method I have described - I know Joule have no issues with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtmcgavock View Post
    Use a 3 port valve, but put a 2 port valve before the cylinder. At least then should anything change on the installation that's out of your control you've always got the fail safe of the 2 port valve.
    Why? This would be like fitting a 2 port valve and then fitting a second 2 port valve behind it (and seems ridiculous from an engineering perspective).

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by The EVOHOME Shop View Post
    Customers are more intelligent than you give them credit for (or certainly that's my experience of being in the trade and dealing with 1000's of customers through our multiple businesses) - tell them this is what you have done and that they can contact the installer if they need any further information. I personally have always left plans of my heating system design with the customer and this removes possible conflicts in the future.
    This may well be the case, however how do you account for if the house is sold, plans lost etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by The EVOHOME Shop View Post
    This is nonsense. A 3 port valve fitted 'correctly' as you say would pass water to the unvented cylinder without a 2 port valve... Things naturally fail that's why there are multiple safety systems that should be checked annually.
    Quite correct that should be checked annually. But people aren't educated enough regarding servicing and unfortunately this doesn't always get done. When someone buys a new build they tell them the boiler needs servicing but mention nothing of the unvented cylinder they have.

    Quote Originally Posted by The EVOHOME Shop View Post
    Above 88 degrees from the boiler? I would imagine it was hot but still not dangerous - you are making excuses now.
    I can't remember the exact temperature, but it was over 80. To me hot water at over 80c, that's dangerous coming out of a tap that isn't a mixer or thermostatically mixed. Might not be dangerous in terms of the cylinder, but wouldn't have been so far off discharging (My Megaflo is set at 90oc).


    Quote Originally Posted by The EVOHOME Shop View Post
    Most manufacturers would be happy using a 3 port valve in the method I have described - I know Joule have no issues with this.
    All the manufactures we fit I know clearly state in the book that the 2 port valve must be installed, even one manufacture goes on to say that if a Mid Postion is used then the 2 port must be installed afterwards. "This valve must also be used in a flow share (Y Plan) system, in conjunction with the mid-position valve, to act as a safety cut out valve."


    I'd like to see Heatrae or one of the other big manufactures put it in writing that it's fine to do what you are saying. Also why would they send a 2 port valve with every cylinder if it wasn't necessary? They could save themselves a fortune.


    Quote Originally Posted by The EVOHOME Shop View Post
    Why? This would be like fitting a 2 port valve and then fitting a second 2 port valve behind it (and seems ridiculous from an engineering perspective).
    I quite agree with you on the terms of it's a ridiculous idea, so why not just fit 2 valves? (CH & HW)

    Whilst I quite respect where you are coming from, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

  4. #84
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    Whilst customers may be intelligent, the same cannot be said for all installers. Recently, I had an issue with the Combination Valve on my Oso cylinder. I called out 2 G3 engineers to look at the problem. One failed to comment on the fact that the valve had been installed at the bottom of the cylinder - below the Tundish - and he couldn't tell me why the cylinder was failing to hold an air gap. The second engineer took one look at the valve and then went outside to check the outflow pipe which he could see was dripping water from it. He explained to me why it was important that the Combination Valve was positioned above the Tundish. Obvious when one thinks about it. The other engineer came back with a quote just to replace the old valve with no change to the pipework! Had I not asked for two quotes, I suspect that I would have been none the wiser.

    FWiW, I had a new boiler installed earlier this year. The installer has left the original HW (2-port) valve in place wired as per OSO's installation manual. The CH 2-port valve was replaced with an inline valve to give HW priority (it closes when the HW valve opens).

  5. #85
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    Interesting.

    The Megaflow we are having installed will have two motorised valves on the hot water feed, one controlled by the tank, set at the tank maximum, one controlled by the Evohome cylinder kit.

    Overkill? Probabably, but since we paid for both valves we may as well use them.

    As an interested, and very experienced amateur I am constantly amazed that you require a certificate to install a non-vented cylinder, yet there seems to be disagreement in the trade about how to do it. Makes me wonder if certification is just another way of persuading those of us who are totally competent, but lacking the certificate, to part with our cash.

    Far better if we were able to carry out the work and have it signed of by building control.

    Grenfell Tower reminds us all that experts are often that in name only, and that you should take even expert advice with a pinch of salt. Caveat emptor for services and goods.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by the crooner View Post
    Interesting.

    The Megaflow we are having installed will have two motorised valves on the hot water feed, one controlled by the tank, set at the tank maximum, one controlled by the Evohome cylinder kit.

    Overkill? Probabably, but since we paid for both valves we may as well use them.

    As an interested, and very experienced amateur I am constantly amazed that you require a certificate to install a non-vented cylinder, yet there seems to be disagreement in the trade about how to do it. Makes me wonder if certification is just another way of persuading those of us who are totally competent, but lacking the certificate, to part with our cash.

    Far better if we were able to carry out the work and have it signed of by building control.

    Grenfell Tower reminds us all that experts are often that in name only, and that you should take even expert advice with a pinch of salt. Caveat emptor for services and goods.
    G3 is a legal requirement for fitting Unvented Cylinders for those that install them, but this doesn't stop people fitting them wrong.

    However, as a second generation heating installer, do I think the G3 regulations are out of date? YES I do!

    Unfortunately installers have stopped thinking about heating systems and just follow the 'rules' without question, as per the conversation above. Many installers don't even understand basic heating system design.

    It is not the fault of installers that they have stopped thinking, as it is easier to just throw systems in as you are told to. However, this may mean that the best engineering solution for the customer is missed, especially with OpenTherm and energy saving minded people like me (an extra 22mm 2 port valve on a system is a waste of money and energy in my opinion). We are going into times where energy waste must be minimised.

    I am currently working on the evohome and the Intergas modulation 'issue'. Some installers have stopped fitting evohome with Intergas boilers because of this issue. On initial assessment there seems to be a lack understanding from installers about evohome and OpenTherm. The good news is that I now have 3 evohome and Intergas ECO RF systems working and fully modulating on OpenTherm (and a robust way of getting it to work).

    There will be more news to this to follow soon, but it's really good news for us as we specialise in the sale of both products online! 👍🏻

  7. #87
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    i still don't understand what the issue is/was with OT and Intergas. I never quite understood the "won't work with multiple zones" issue. i know that Viesmann and Ideal had the issue of the boiler ignoring its own set max and heating till it's physical max. But has anyone actually articulated the issue with the Intergas?

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruce_miranda View Post
    i still don't understand what the issue is/was with OT and Intergas. I never quite understood the "won't work with multiple zones" issue. i know that Viesmann and Ideal had the issue of the boiler ignoring its own set max and heating till it's physical max. But has anyone actually articulated the issue with the Intergas?
    Intergas and Honeywell are well aware of the situation. At the end of the day it is in the interests of a manufacturers producing OpenTherm products to get this right, especially if UK law changes and modulating controls become a requirement.

  9. #89
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    So what was at fault and how was it resolved?

    I was going to install an Intergas ecoRF until they (installer talking directly to intergas) admitted it wouldn't work correctly with OT multizones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fergie View Post
    So what was at fault and how was it resolved?
    Right now I am going to say 'installer error' as not many people know evohome and Intergas like we do. I think there is a lack of understanding around OpenTherm, hence we have setup a training facility which will be dedicated to it here.

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