Help with Evohome / Opentherm / Intergas

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  • HenGus
    Automated Home Legend
    • May 2014
    • 1001

    #91
    This is what put me off choosing the Intergas RF Eco:



    Backed up with an exchange with Intergas Technical Support confirming that there was an issue with the RF Eco, and that this had been referred back to the Intergas Netherlands for resolution. Are you saying that Intergas Technical do not understand their own boilers, and what does Dan now think? He has re-stated his view on other forums: albeit, some months ago now.
    Last edited by HenGus; 26 July 2017, 09:36 AM.

    Comment

    • the crooner
      Automated Home Jr Member
      • Jun 2017
      • 33

      #92
      Seems strange to be blaming installer error.

      You pair you bluetooth devices, wireless works as intended betwwen your route and you network card.

      Opentherm is two wires.

      How can the installer connect 2 wires wrong, and what is there in the evohome configuration which can be set incorrectly?

      Really? Training to join two wires together?

      There has to information which should be in the public domain which it seems is not.

      I can see that Intergas sales have been lost - we were on the brink of ordering before deciding that Opentherm is just not market ready with Evohome.

      Comment

      • paulockenden
        Automated Home Legend
        • Apr 2015
        • 1719

        #93
        I hope this doesn't start to get a bit "I know a secret..."

        P.

        Comment

        • HenGus
          Automated Home Legend
          • May 2014
          • 1001

          #94
          Originally posted by paulockenden View Post
          I hope this doesn't start to get a bit "I know a secret..."

          P.
          I agree with Crooner. My installer just screwed the bridge to the wall in my garage and ran a 2-core wire to the boiler. He fitted a small adapter to the two nominated OT terminals and attached the 2 wires. He then asked me to re-configure the Evohome controller to a boiler relay. The only thing that is secret, AFAIK, is that there appears to be no OT logo on the bridge. I wouldn't expect it to be on the controller as it is not OT-compatible without the bridge.

          Comment

          • bruce_miranda
            Automated Home Legend
            • Jul 2014
            • 2307

            #95
            I cannot understand why the "situation" itself cannot be described in a way we can understand.

            Comment

            • rotor
              Automated Home Guru
              • Aug 2015
              • 124

              #96
              Originally posted by mtmcgavock View Post
              So when you've fitted the reserved 3 port, what happens when someone else, who isn't the original installer comes along when the valve has failed and says this hasn't been fitted correctly (Not aware of the situation). He then puts it on the right way round and leaves it - your are opening a can of worms.
              I work in IT and I agree 100% with this position. It's easy to come up with new and clever solutions, but when they go against established standards, it's easy to get into a situation down the road where your (good) intentions are long forgotten, and your solution ends up getting "fixed", leading to problems. Much better to engineer the solution correctly up front, without being too clever. In this specific case, I would wait for a 3-way valve that was labelled correctly, so there is no confusion for future engineers to "fix".

              Comment

              • paulockenden
                Automated Home Legend
                • Apr 2015
                • 1719

                #97
                Originally posted by HenGus View Post
                I agree with Crooner. My installer just screwed the bridge to the wall in my garage and ran a 2-core wire to the boiler. He fitted a small adapter to the two nominated OT terminals and attached the 2 wires. He then asked me to re-configure the Evohome controller to a boiler relay. The only thing that is secret, AFAIK, is that there appears to be no OT logo on the bridge. I wouldn't expect it to be on the controller as it is not OT-compatible without the bridge.
                I don't think the issue was that you couldn't connect it up. The reported issue is that the boiler can't cope with the possible data rate from the Evohome system (I presume there must be a built-in delay after every temp change, but that's just guesswork).

                Comment

                • fergie
                  Automated Home Sr Member
                  • Mar 2017
                  • 92

                  #98
                  My understanding is that OT bypassed the internal temp limit in some boilers so the heat output constantly overshot and the boiler ran flat out regardless of demand.

                  So I'm guessing Evohomeshop has found a way to stop this happening on the Intergas?

                  Comment

                  • bruce_miranda
                    Automated Home Legend
                    • Jul 2014
                    • 2307

                    #99
                    That was the confirmed case with Visemenn and Ideal. But no one has mentioned this in the Intergas context, unless "dropping ones knickers" is considered to be the same issue.

                    Comment

                    • blowlamp
                      Automated Home Sr Member
                      • Apr 2017
                      • 98

                      Originally posted by paulockenden View Post
                      I don't think the issue was that you couldn't connect it up. The reported issue is that the boiler can't cope with the possible data rate from the Evohome system (I presume there must be a built-in delay after every temp change, but that's just guesswork).
                      Hi Paul.

                      That was just the theory of Dan Robinson who is a heating engineer, but not an expert at the 'nuts & bolts' level of how OpenTherm works, as far as I'm aware. I find it hard to see a situation where a heating system could require such processing power or data transfer speeds that it in effect 'crashes out' to some default setting because of an inability to keep pace.

                      As others have mentioned, OpenTherm has no concept of multiple zones, so it must follow that it's down to Evohome to calculate what it needs the boiler to do as a single zone in order to accomplish its goal.

                      Intergas boilers are designed & made in Holland where OpenTherm is a requirement by law. Having looked closely at their product it's quite plain to me the care taken in its manufacture. It would surely be a huge mistake by Intergas to have a shoddy implementation of OpenTherm as its boiler 'operating system'.
                      Last edited by blowlamp; 26 July 2017, 12:33 PM.

                      Comment

                      • fergie
                        Automated Home Sr Member
                        • Mar 2017
                        • 92

                        My understanding was that the Intergas was going to need a new motherboard to fix it, but I guess we are all waiting on evohomeshop to give us the low down.

                        Comment

                        • The EVOHOME Shop
                          Site Sponsor
                          • Dec 2014
                          • 483

                          Originally posted by HenGus View Post
                          This is what put me off choosing the Intergas RF Eco:



                          Backed up with an exchange with Intergas Technical Support confirming that there was an issue with the RF Eco, and that this had been referred back to the Intergas Netherlands for resolution. Are you saying that Intergas Technical do not understand their own boilers, and what does Dan now think? He has re-stated his view on other forums: albeit, some months ago now.
                          No, I am not saying Intergas technical don't know their product - they just don't know evohome like I do. The OpenTherm Bridge works fine with the Intergas ECO RF with other RF devices, it just seemed to be evohome that was the sticking point.

                          The good news is that I got Dan's ECO RF (yes he has one in his own home) modulating a few nights ago, so I would say yes he is now on-board with this. I do have to thank Dan as he put me onto the right track while I was investigating it.

                          I do find it funny that this is being taken as a 'secret' - I am just having to be very choice with my words until my findings have been verified by all parties involved.

                          The fact is it is working and modulating control set point nicely based on zone demand.

                          Comment

                          • HenGus
                            Automated Home Legend
                            • May 2014
                            • 1001

                            Originally posted by blowlamp View Post
                            Hi Paul.

                            That was just the theory of Dan Robinson who is a heating engineer, but not an expert at the 'nuts & bolts' level of how OpenTherm works, as far as I'm aware. I find it hard to see a situation where a heating system could require such processing power or data transfer speeds that it in effect 'crashes out' to some default setting because of an inability to keep pace.

                            As others have mentioned, OpenTherm has no concept of multiple zones, so it must follow that it's down to Evohome to calculate what it needs the boiler to do as a single zone in order to accomplish its goal.

                            Intergas boilers are designed & made in Holland where OpenTherm is a requirement by law. Having looked closely at their product it's quite plain to me the care taken in its manufacture. It would surely be a huge mistake by Intergas to have a shoddy implementation of OpenTherm as its boiler 'operating system'.
                            I think that he knows a fair bit about Intergas boilers:




                            As I recall, he told me that he was running an RF Eco with OT and BDR/Wx comp.

                            Comment

                            • HenGus
                              Automated Home Legend
                              • May 2014
                              • 1001

                              Originally posted by The EVOHOME Shop View Post
                              No, I am not saying Intergas technical don't know their product - they just don't know evohome like I do. The OpenTherm Bridge works fine with the Intergas ECO RF with other RF devices, it just seemed to be evohome that was the sticking point.

                              The good news is that I got Dan's ECO RF (yes he has one in his own home) modulating a few nights ago, so I would say yes he is now on-board with this. I do have to thank Dan as he put me onto the right track while I was investigating it.

                              I do find it funny that this is being taken as a 'secret' - I am just having to be very choice with my words until my findings have been verified by all parties involved.

                              The fact is it is working and modulating control set point nicely based on zone demand.
                              So, is there are problem with Evohome that users thinking about - or who have got - an OT bridge should know about?

                              Comment

                              • The EVOHOME Shop
                                Site Sponsor
                                • Dec 2014
                                • 483

                                Capture.jpg

                                The graph screenshot above is from a friends Intergas ECO RF 24 last night, which I will be using as a real world test facility. He has MK3 evohome with 10 heating zones and an R8810 OpenTherm Bridge.

                                Originally posted by HenGus
                                I think that he knows a fair bit about Intergas boilers:




                                As I recall, he told me that he was running an RF Eco with OT and BDR/Wx comp.
                                Dan at Jennings Heating is not only a brilliant heating installer, but he is probably the UK's expert on Intergas Boilers! He was here at our training and test facility only last week.
                                Last edited by The EVOHOME Shop; 26 July 2017, 01:14 PM.

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