Help with Evohome / Opentherm / Intergas

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  • fergie
    Automated Home Sr Member
    • Mar 2017
    • 92

    The only installers I found who were 'keen' to take on my project were a couple of sole traders who were in their 20s/30s.

    The rest were along the lines of we will install a new boiler, but not touch the evohome.

    Comment

    • Dan_Robinson
      Automated Home Ninja
      • Jun 2012
      • 347

      As an installer I will say "long may that continue". I'm booked through to the end of October.
      Kind Regards - Dan Robinson (Jennings Heating Ltd)

      Comment

      • fergie
        Automated Home Sr Member
        • Mar 2017
        • 92

        😂 Totally. I'm near Glasgow and it's a completely untapped market here - especially Evohome and OT. It's all nest, nest, nest (and WB).

        Personally I think Honeywell could do a much better job advertising as I hadn't even heard of evohome or anything like it until someone told me.

        Maybe some of the reason lots of installers told me there's no demand? Yet there is a demand for nest?

        Part of my negotiation position as a customer with installers was that I'd be happy for them to use my house as a demonstrator and for publicity etc. Again very few saw the opportunity.

        Comment

        • HenGus
          Automated Home Legend
          • May 2014
          • 1001

          Originally posted by fergie View Post
          �� Totally. I'm near Glasgow and it's a completely untapped market here - especially Evohome and OT. It's all nest, nest, nest (and WB).
          And Nestv3 is now OT.

          Comment

          • paulockenden
            Automated Home Legend
            • Apr 2015
            • 1719

            The trouble is, the major bit of an Evohome install is electrical. There's little if any plumbing required. But most heating engineers seem happy to do the gas/wet stuff, but farm out the electrical work to a tame sparky. That's what happened with my installer. But of course the sparky, who had most of the work to do, wasn't the one who'd done the (quite basic) Evohome training.

            There ARE a few people who do water, gas AND electrics, and I can't help thinking those are the people Honeywell should be targeting.

            P.

            Comment

            • fergie
              Automated Home Sr Member
              • Mar 2017
              • 92

              As I was running my evohome in standalone (rads only with no boiler connection) for while before installing the new boiler all the installer really had to do was the boiler install, fit the water kit to the cylinder and wire everything up including the OT bridge. Though he had never done one, he was electrically minded so was happy to look at the diagrams and do a bit of research himself. We paired and tested the OT bridge and water controller together.

              I guess it is quite a hefty outlay for Evohome for a decent size house (£800-£1000 depending on number of rads, plus labour) and then another 2k-3k on top of that if changing boiler. Maybe people don't want to pay 5k for a smart system, but surely those that can afford it are the ones to target?

              Nest is probably ideal for smaller homes, but ultimately I wanted the rad control (without contract) that evohome delivers.

              Comment

              • DBMandrake
                Automated Home Legend
                • Sep 2014
                • 2361

                Originally posted by paulockenden View Post
                The trouble is, the major bit of an Evohome install is electrical. There's little if any plumbing required. But most heating engineers seem happy to do the gas/wet stuff, but farm out the electrical work to a tame sparky. That's what happened with my installer. But of course the sparky, who had most of the work to do, wasn't the one who'd done the (quite basic) Evohome training.

                There ARE a few people who do water, gas AND electrics, and I can't help thinking those are the people Honeywell should be targeting.

                P.
                And that is the problem in a nutshell. I know we've discussed this in another thread a while ago but lack of cross skilling is a major problem.

                The days of being able to specialise on something like being a gas safe registered plummer only are drawing to a close. Modern heating controls really need the installer to also be a qualified electrician and also have proper training in heating systems design from a "big picture" point of view. Even if you have the electrical side covered it's still not enough to be able to wire in a BDR91 if you don't understand the overall functioning of the system and why you're wiring up what you are.

                I sense that there is a real resistance to cross skilling in the heating industry where your traditional heating/plumbing guys just don't want to know about the electrical side of it and either farm that out to someone else or stick just to the basic "wire by numbers" that you see in typical wiring centre boxes, that doesn't really require any electrical understanding to implement, so long as you don't stray from the path...

                One of these wire by number types would have a heart attack if they were to try to figure out my custom wiring in my system - it's all perfectly logically laid out (and I even have a written circuit diagram in the cupboard) but it strays a long way from the "typical" wiring schemes that most wiring centres follow, let alone the fact that it has 3x BDR91's...

                It's a bit like the motor mechanic trade where the die hard guys who could overhaul an engine with their hands behind their back but just weren't interested in learning about ECU's and the rapidly more complex electrical systems in cars of today, and they either farm it out to specialist electrical troubleshooters (good example - scannerdanner on youtube!) or retire before it becomes too much of a hassle. I feel sorry for these guys as EV's start to take over!

                Most gas safe plumbers are content to stick with a single wall thermostat, wax pellet TRV's and an LCD timer. Or if you're lucky the single wall thermostat will be something like a Hive, which is a small improvement (TPI, better programming) but still isn't zoned.

                The guy that came and did some work for us to get the really run down system in this house at least functioning when we first moved in, (no TRV's at all, leaking valves etc) did a pretty decent job of the plumbing side for a decent price (although failed to notice that the pump was set at a 45 degree angle and put it back at 45 degrees after installing the ABV that I asked for!) however I could tell from a mile away that he wasn't a sparky and wasn't interested in new fangled, stuff.

                When I even mentioned that I was planning to install evohome later that year (that's why I'd asked for the ABV to be installed) he had heard of it but tried to talk me out of it, said it was a waste of time with an old low efficiency boiler and basically didn't think the system was worthwhile in the first place. When I probed a bit further it was clear he had no understanding of how evohome worked, or even the fact that it had independent schedules per zone.

                Nor did he seem to grasp the concept that better heating controls like a zoned system like evohome could save significant gas even on an old non-condensing boiler, in fact because the boiler is less efficient any percentage savings offered by zoning would be proportionately more in monetary terms! Obviously having a more efficient boiler and evohome would be even better again, but I made the call that as the first improvement to the system I'd rather have evohome with the old boiler and gain the control flexibility and comfort from it, than have an expensive new boiler but stick with an outdated single thermostat and manual TRV system.

                I find it highly disappointing that in 2017 a single wall thermostat with TPI (instead of Opentherm) and wax pellet TRV's is considered state of the art by the majority of installers when it clearly isn't. Thank goodness for the few like Richard that really know what they are doing and are enthusiastic about pushing newer more sophisticated technology, and know how to design the systems properly... and those of us DIY'ers who ignore the recommendations of the old set in their ways installers and do the same in our own time!
                Last edited by DBMandrake; 5 August 2017, 02:25 PM.

                Comment

                • paulockenden
                  Automated Home Legend
                  • Apr 2015
                  • 1719

                  Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
                  ...would have a heart attack if they were to try to figure out my custom wiring in my system
                  How's that working out Simon?

                  Comment

                  • DBMandrake
                    Automated Home Legend
                    • Sep 2014
                    • 2361

                    Originally posted by paulockenden View Post
                    How's that working out Simon?
                    If you're referring to my heating zone valve wiring tweak, then yes it is working nicely.

                    Comment

                    • paulockenden
                      Automated Home Legend
                      • Apr 2015
                      • 1719

                      I was indeed. Been thinking of doing the same - it looks like such a logical mod, with obvious benefits. But wanted to make sure you'd not seen any problems.

                      Comment

                      • fergie
                        Automated Home Sr Member
                        • Mar 2017
                        • 92

                        Originally posted by paulockenden View Post
                        I was indeed. Been thinking of doing the same - it looks like such a logical mod, with obvious benefits. But wanted to make sure you'd not seen any problems.
                        What is this? And on what sort of layout?

                        Here are a few pics of my set up:

                        IMG_4225.jpgIMG_4824.jpgIMG_4825.jpg

                        Comment

                        • mtmcgavock
                          Automated Home Legend
                          • Mar 2017
                          • 507

                          Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
                          And that is the problem in a nutshell. I know we've discussed this in another thread a while ago but lack of cross skilling is a major problem.
                          As an installer I know this is definitely the main problem in the industry. The issue is most installers can't do electrics and then most electricians in my experience can't wire a heating system correctly. The amount of electricians that I have come across that can't wire a basic system never mind a complex system is unbelievable, then when you get onto systems with UFH manifolds and multiple zones then you really have an issue. I think the issue is you have to understand what the system is doing from a plumbing point of view, to be able to understand how it should be wired. For instance the wiring diagram for a Y or S plan system doesn't take into account for if it's a system boiler and there's no pump but it needs a permanent live (This really confused one electrician on a job). The ones in my area that I know are good have a logical understanding on how the plumbing side works.

                          We do all our wiring ourselves for the heating controls to ensure that we don't have any problems. It's less hassle.

                          Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
                          When I even mentioned that I was planning to install evohome later that year (that's why I'd asked for the ABV to be installed) he had heard of it but tried to talk me out of it, said it was a waste of time with an old low efficiency boiler and basically didn't think the system was worthwhile in the first place. When I probed a bit further it was clear he had no understanding of how evohome worked, or even the fact that it had independent schedules per zone.
                          The issue is Honeywell don't advertise the system, most of the installers I know don't know about it. I also know i'm the only person at our local branch who buys the stuff. I don't think Honeywell have pushed the system enough for installers and consumers to know about it. Everyone knows about Nest and Hive yet no one knows about Honeywells. They seemed to have pushed the Lyric enough in branches, so why not EvoHome too.

                          Originally posted by fergie View Post
                          I guess it is quite a hefty outlay for Evohome for a decent size house (£800-£1000 depending on number of rads, plus labour) and then another 2k-3k on top of that if changing boiler. Maybe people don't want to pay 5k for a smart system, but surely those that can afford it are the ones to target?
                          In my experience the majority of customers we've replaced boilers for don't want to outlay that kind of money. Out of the 11 or so Evohome systems we've installed 3 have only gone for the fully HR92s and HW control and only one has had OT. Soon as you mention you're least looking at £500+ for a basic Evohome most people aren't interested - they think it's bad enough paying £1.5k to £3k for a new boiler.
                          Last edited by mtmcgavock; 5 August 2017, 03:55 PM.

                          Comment

                          • The EVOHOME Shop
                            Site Sponsor
                            • Dec 2014
                            • 483

                            Originally posted by fergie View Post
                            What is this? And on what sort of layout?

                            Here are a few pics of my set up:

                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]1049[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1050[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1051[/ATTACH]
                            Nice to see the BDR91 and CS92A are close enough to shake hands with each other... 😂

                            Comment

                            • fergie
                              Automated Home Sr Member
                              • Mar 2017
                              • 92

                              Originally posted by The EVOHOME Shop View Post
                              Nice to see the BDR91 and CS92A are close enough to shake hands with each other... ��
                              It seems to work in a rather busy cupboard!

                              The breaker and switch to the left are for the jacuzzi / air bath.

                              Comment

                              • Dan_Robinson
                                Automated Home Ninja
                                • Jun 2012
                                • 347

                                It's always been a given to me that if you install a system, you should know how to wire the bugger up.

                                Frankly I'm over plumbing. Unless it's a nice big plant room. But it pays the bills. Designing and wiring the controls is much more fun.

                                Just a shame a lot of properties I work in are an rf nightmare.
                                Kind Regards - Dan Robinson (Jennings Heating Ltd)

                                Comment

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