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Thread: Atag IS24 Plus Evohome Plus Opentherm

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCK View Post
    I don't under stand the logic of the Spirovent to prevent corrosion . I understood (perhaps incorrectly) the corrosion is mostly by dissolved oxygen not by free air , Spirovent cannot remove dissolved oxygen. Also an inhibitor like Sentinel X100 can be dosed to excess without negative impact. For me an inhibitor would always make sense.
    I think that Spirotech may disagree with your view. They warrant Spirovent as being capable of extracting 99.6% of dissolved air in water. I think that this is one for installers to argue about. Atag are happy as the water quality will be re-tested at every service, and they have issued a 10 year warranty on their boiler.

    Quote:

    With respect to heating water treatment with chemical agents the statement of the VDI 2035 is in contrast to the British Standard that such agents should only be used in limited cases by professionals with the necessary chemical education. According to VDI 2035 there is no need for chemical agents as in a well-planned operated and maintained system, with a favourable water quality, no damages caused by lime-scale and corrosion are to be expected.

    Unquote

    Edit: Just in case posters think that I have been sold a pup re corrosion inhibitor. This is an extract from the ATag Uk boiler installation manual:

    Fill the installation with mains cold water.

    In most cases, a heating system can be filled with water according to national standards for water and treatment of this water is not necessary.

    In order to avoid problems with the CH-installations, the quality of the fillling water has to meet the specifications mentioned in table 9.3.a:
    If the filling water does not meet the required specifications, you are advised to treat the water to such an extent that it does meet the required specifications.

    The warranty becomes invalid, if the installation is not being flushed and/or the quality of the filling water does not meet the specifications recommended by ATAG Heating Technology Ltd. Always contact ATAG Heating Technology Ltd in advance, if things are not clear or you wish to discuss any deviations. Without approval, the warranty becomes invalid.

    The document goes on to say that the use of corrosion inhibiters is at the owner's risk.
    Last edited by HenGus; 26th April 2017 at 12:26 PM. Reason: Addtl info

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenGus View Post
    I have a 19 radiator/5 bed home with an unvented 250L OSO cylinder. The IS24 has replaced an Ideal Classic system boiler.

    I am still trying to get my mind around Opentherm and condensing boilers. At the moment, about 50% of the house is calling off and on for heat. The boiler currently has a flow temperature of 60C and a return temperature of 54C. There are considerably less zone temperature variations than was the case; no boiler cycling and the boiler itself is whisper quiet.

    Edit: I have just checked. Three zones and 10 radiators all at set temperature. The boiler has flow/return of 50C/49C. Pretty clever stuff.
    Hi HenGus, really appreciative of all the info you've been posting. I suspect I'm going to end up with EXACTLY what you've got. A couple of questions about your cylinder: did you choose it, or was it already there? Did you have any problems installing the EvoHome temperature probe? And if you chose it, was there anything specific about that brand (I'd never even heard of it), and how did you decide on the 250L size?

    Thanks again!

  3. #53
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    I personally am not sold on any Spirotech products. I even went through the hassle of swapping a Spirotrap with a Magnaclean Pro and the results are immediately apparent. The Spirotrap just isn't capable to catching and trapping everything. Important to consider this aspect especially if you are trying to run the system without any inhibitor. I too don't believe that the Spirotech thing can get rid of dissolved Oxygen, it's just a fancy air vent and nothing else.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotor View Post
    Hi HenGus, really appreciative of all the info you've been posting. I suspect I'm going to end up with EXACTLY what you've got. A couple of questions about your cylinder: did you choose it, or was it already there? Did you have any problems installing the EvoHome temperature probe? And if you chose it, was there anything specific about that brand (I'd never even heard of it), and how did you decide on the 250L size?

    Thanks again!
    No problem sharing experiences. I have been sorting out a 'schoolboy' error. My installer's qualified helper (a heating installer in his own right) managed to fit the ABV cap/disc incorrectly. Yesterday morning, the HW BDR closed just as my first zone asked for heat. There was quite a bit of gurgling in the airing cupboard. Called my man who concluded that it was most likely pump cavitation so we discussed a variety of options. I should add that he is no great fan of running a boiler on a zone with just a couple of radiators.

    He suggested that as a starter for 10, I should look at opening the ABV. Easier said than done, as the setting disc and cap appeared to do nothing. I have just taken the ABV apart, and I can see that the disc was not aligned with the actual valve setting. Easily done and easily fixed. I have just finished 30 minutes of online research about Atag pump head and flows, and I have concluded that the valve needs to be set at 2.2 so I will give that a go.

    As to your question. I have an existing Oso Unvented 250L cylinder which doesn't have any ports for the HW kit. I discussed the problem with the Oso Technical Team and we concluded that the best bet was to open the electrical access panel and push the probe up at an angle under the insulating foam. It is held in place with a piece of an old plastic biro barrel. After 3 years it is still there. The HW kit itself is wired in series with the existing tank thermostat and top limit stat. You need to remember to turn the tank thermostat to a higher setting than the Evohome HW temp setting.

    The kit itself throws up the occasional Loss of Sensor Comms Fault. I have discussed this with Honeywell and they do not consider it an issue.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruce_miranda View Post
    I personally am not sold on any Spirotech products. I even went through the hassle of swapping a Spirotrap with a Magnaclean Pro and the results are immediately apparent. The Spirotrap just isn't capable to catching and trapping everything. Important to consider this aspect especially if you are trying to run the system without any inhibitor. I too don't believe that the Spirotech thing can get rid of dissolved Oxygen, it's just a fancy air vent and nothing else.
    I think that this is a bit like 'which is the best boiler debate' ?. Often, it comes down to personal preferences and user/installer experience.

    The VDI (2035) which I suspect Atag is obliquely referring to in its documentation relates to pressurised domestic heating systems. My reading of the VDI suggests that there is no actual requirement for either a filter or a de-aerator. - they are there to provide added protection to the boiler.

    http://www.reflex.de/en/services/sta...i-2035-part-2/

  6. #56
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    I think you won the best boiler debate, that's for sure.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruce_miranda View Post
    I personally am not sold on any Spirotech products. I even went through the hassle of swapping a Spirotrap with a Magnaclean Pro and the results are immediately apparent. The Spirotrap just isn't capable to catching and trapping everything. Important to consider this aspect especially if you are trying to run the system without any inhibitor. I too don't believe that the Spirotech thing can get rid of dissolved Oxygen, it's just a fancy air vent and nothing else.
    Couldn't agree more. The Magnaclean products are much better and effective at removing debris and sludge from a system. The Spirotech products are awful at removing dirt from a system, a Magnaclean that's been installed for a day could remove more dirt than a Spirotech could in a year.

    You'd be mad to run a system without inhibitor, to me you are just asking for trouble.

  8. #58
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    The mandatory inhibitor addition is from an open vented era. It is a legacy which people aren't willing to give up in a closed looped system, which in theory should have no air or opening for air to get in.

  9. #59
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    It's not just air that's in the system, it's the oxygen in the water that reacts with the steel in the radiators. In theory yes once a system is 'closed' no more oxygen should get in but even so on a good system it will loose pressure over time and have to be topped up. Topping the system up you are introducing fresh water with oxygen into the system, the inhibitor prevents the reaction from occurring. You also have to consider that poor quality radiators can rust and cause blockages in pipework and heat exchangers from fragments that have become free.

    You'll also find your boiler manufacture won't warrant any parts damaged by not having inhibitor in the system, as it strictly says inhibitor must be added and is on your commissioning log.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtmcgavock View Post
    It's not just air that's in the system, it's the oxygen in the water that reacts with the steel in the radiators. In theory yes once a system is 'closed' no more oxygen should get in but even so on a good system it will loose pressure over time and have to be topped up. Topping the system up you are introducing fresh water with oxygen into the system, the inhibitor prevents the reaction from occurring. You also have to consider that poor quality radiators can rust and cause blockages in pipework and heat exchangers from fragments that have become free.

    You'll also find your boiler manufacture won't warrant any parts damaged by not having inhibitor in the system, as it strictly says inhibitor must be added and is on your commissioning log.
    Atag does not ban the use of chemicals; however,.......

    Should you wish to achieve the required water quality by using chemical additives, then this is your own responsibility. The warranty on the product delivered by ATAG Heating Technology Ltd expires, if the water quality does not meet ATAG Heating Technology's specifications or the chemical additives have not been approved by ATAG Heating Technology Ltd.

    I think that a key factor here is that the boiler was designed primarily for use in The Netherlands. As I have indicated above, current standards in Germany for pressurised domestic heating systems no longer require inhibitors. They also allow for 5%/year replenishment with a full water test each year.

    As one very knowledgeable installer (MSc) told me about his time in Germany, 'when you go to a heating trade show in Germany you end up speaking to Herr Doctor with a PhD in engineering; conversely, a U.K. Trade Show tends to have a very high proportion of salesmen'.

    I should add that I was sceptical at first; however, my chosen installer was recommended to me by Atag Tech as he has installed 10s of their products (2 boilers in the last three weeks), and they have issued a 10 year warranty.

    Ask me again if I was right in five years time.
    Last edited by HenGus; 26th April 2017 at 08:24 PM.

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